Sue me, I combined the headlines….If you want to be cool this weekend, here are some exciting local stories:
- If you don’t label your pigs right, you will be arrested by an army of 12 FEDS
- The City thinks about shutting down Smith and Crow pools for a new YMCA in McIntire Park
- YESSS, this is my favorite….Abusive driver fees are UNCONSTITUTIONAL
- Water Street Design competition finalists. Can anyone tell me why each of these are not posted with descriptions on the Market Value website? Why on earth do they have a website!?
What did we forget? Has anyone gotten one of those crazy fines?
Related posts:
- Don’t Drink the Water: Charlottesville Water Restrictions in Place
- Water Street Maze AKA Sewer Beautification
- What’s in Your Weekend?
Hate to say it, but until we have a high court decision declaring the fines unconstitutional, they can still be levied locally. As stated in the article itself:
“Challenges to the fees have also been raised in traffic courts in Charlottesville, Virginia Beach and Albemarle, Chesterfield, Greene and Halifax counties. The General District Court judges in these areas found the fees constitutional, [Arlington's Circuit Court, spokesman David]Clementson said.”
Until the VA Supreme Court (or a local circut court) speaks to the issue, the Arlington, Hanover and Richmond decisons declaring the fines unconstitutional are nice, but non-binding, locally. Given how long it takes to get a court case pushed that high, very likely the General Assembly will attempt to correct its mistake, before the Supreme Court is able to rule on the issue definitively. Be careful out there.
personally i am all for the fines. if anything i think they should be higher.
it is a pretty easy thing to avoid getting in trouble for, and i think it is a good way to raise money.
no, those fines are simply ridiculous. not to say your opinion is wrong, but you are in a very small minority with it.
I’ll agree with tmr. It’s not the smartest way to raise cash or improve safety, but if it does a little of both, it’s for the good.
why not charge $5,000 for jaywalking then? or $2,500 for a busted taillight? good way to raise cash and improve safety.
punishment needs to fit the crime, folks.
what is ridiculous about them? i think it is far more ridiculous that people are complaining about the punishment for breaking a very reasonable law. i mean, really, is there any time you need to be going 20 over the limit?
can anyone give me a reason other than people don’t want to have to pay so much for breaking a clearly stated, and very reasonable law? look, i’ve gone more than 20 over the limit before–well over. but, it is dangerous and stupid, and if the danger of it doesn’t make me think twice about doing it, a couple grand out of my pocket certainly will.
i understand the argument about it not being fair to target only VA drivers, but you’re going to have to give me something better than “well if johnny can speed, why can’t i?” to convince me to change my mind.
and, if in the end this is proven to be unconstitutional, i support a constitutional amendment to allow it.
the majority of people who drive well over the speed limit most likely do it on a regular basis. so while you think the fine might be excessive for just one speeding violation, think about all the times the person did not get caught, and the times in the future it may prevent. looking at it that way a couple thousand looks like a bargain to me.
chad, don’t be so obtuse. excessive speeding is a conscious and dangerous choice to make. i’m sure there are stats out there about speeding related fatalities. i’d say the punishment does fit the crime in this case.
here i’ll save you the trouble. old data, but relevant:
http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/speed_manage/docs/us_speed_fatalities.pdf
about 13k-14k speeding related fatalities a year in the US. i’d say its a serious problem
traffic on the beltway regularly goes far over the 55mph limit, and smoothly at that. $2500 for 20 over? that’s ridiculous. there are plenty of roads where you can safely drive 75mph on, and the beltway is clearly one of them. others are fine at 55, such as sections of rt 53 .. going 75mph there, sure, that’s certainly reckless. but still, to be fined THAT high of an amount? that’s a months pay for a lot of people, if not more.
the payment for having X amount of points is what really bothers me. *you’ve already been punished* by getting the ticket and paying the fine in the first place, and now you’re being punished for .. being punished? it’s not technically double jeopardy, but it’s pretty damn close.
Felony failure to signal: $1,000
Misdemeanor failure to signal: $350
*failure to signal*. how many people have you seen not using their signals? should it be illegal, sure. people should signal. but fines in the hundreds, and up to a thousand dollars? i don’t think the punishment fits the crime, sorry.
i’ve seen a lot of people not signal, and i’ve seen some damn close calls because of it. again, no problem with that law. i really doubt anyone would get charged with the felony unless it caused a wreck.
if legislators want to change the speed limit to 75 on places like the beltway, if that is deemed to be a safe speed, then i don’t have a problem with it.
i just don’t get how people can complain about punishment for a law that is so black and white. we are driving thousands of pounds of metal at high speeds within feet of each other. it is just a dangerous situation.
an anecdote:
my girlfriend and her mom were driving on the beltway recently. a car just a couple in front of them hit the inside wall, did a 180, started flipping and exploded into a ball of flames. she said it was like something you see in the movies. would this have happened if the car was driving 20 mph slower? i guess no one can say for sure. but i’m sure certain tragedies like that could be avoided if everyone just slowed down, and i think this law helps to do that. to me, at least, that is worth it.
everyone has been sufficiently warned about the penalties, i don’t really feel sorry for anyone who chooses to take a chance and gets caught.
i just don’t get how people can complain about punishment for a law that is so black and white. we are driving thousands of pounds of metal at high speeds within feet of each other. it is just a dangerous situation.
because artificially low speed limits are money generators for the state. how many times have you seen a speed limit on a road actually get raised? i can’t think of more than a handful in my life, and i used to live on a road that had a very low speed limit set for it, and was a constant site for speedtraps, because on a *4 lane straight road*, no one was able to go 35.
fwiw, the last ticket i got was in culpepper after i made a wrong turn, and the speed limit suddenly dropped from 45 to 25 i believe. the road didn’t really change at all in terms of safe speed, nearby houses, conditions, curves, traffic etc. i didn’t notice the speed limit change as I was trying to figure out where i was, but the cop there sure noticed me.
as I explained myself, the response: “yeah, most people miss that sign, which is why we set up here every friday night.”
not uncommon at all. a couple months later, that’d be a $2500 mistake, as well as any other fines if i had 8 points or more already on my license.
you know what people who can’t afford those fines are going to do? DRIVE ANYWAY. they already do — i had a car totaled by a guy who had no license. not didn’t have it on him, just had no license, period. overly punishing people financially isn’t going to make them better drivers, it’s just going to lead to a lot more unlicensed and uninsured ones.
red light running and stop sign running are surely big factors in traffic accidents. would you agree to a $3,000 fine for running a red light?
i could be wrong, but i think the speed limit may have been raised somewhat recently on rt 29 in Southside some places. maybe not though.
but ok, if they do raise the limits and that cash flow is eliminated, then what? tolls? personally, i’d rather have the speed limit lower.
i mean you already get about 5-10 mph before you will ever get pulled over anyway, with that sort of grace zone i just don’t think there is room to complain.
but by the way, what is your hurry? although, if you do the math, you probably aren’t going to save yourself much time speeding anyway, unless you are driving a couple hours or more.
yes, i would agree to a $3000 fine to running a red light, as long as there was some sort of way to verify the car actually crossed the line into the intersection when the light was already red.
i think you must be missing my point that cars are dangerous. they are just as dangerous as a gun. if someone violated gun laws and was unsafely using one i would support the same sorts of fines.
but ok, if they do raise the limits and that cash flow is eliminated, then what? tolls? personally, i’d rather have the speed limit lower.
raise the gas tax. i’d gladly welcome $4-$5 gas since that is what it’s going to take to really encourage people to find alternative solutions to oil and actually follow through with it.
i mean you already get about 5-10 mph before you will ever get pulled over anyway, with that sort of grace zone i just don’t think there is room to complain.
depends on the mood of the cop. i’ve seen multiple people with “speeding 1-9 mph” tickets. my ex-gf got a ticket for going 68 in a 65. $140. just go to a courtroom and look for the cases to be heard that day, you’ll surely see one yourself. i know i did in fairfax.
but by the way, what is your hurry?
i tend to naturally drive what the safe limit for the road is. on 53, i’m usually right at the speed limit, or maybe 5 over. on the beltway, i’ll go 70 without thinking about it. because if you go 55, you’re probably going to *cause* an accident that you wouldn’t cause by going 70. flow of traffic and all.
on 29 in town it’s usually impossible to go the speed limit in the first place due to all the traffic. probably why i’ve never seen a speed trap set up on 29 in town (out of town — entirely different story. speed traps everywhere)
yes, i would agree to a $3000 fine to running a red light, as long as there was some sort of way to verify the car actually crossed the line into the intersection when the light was already red.
ok, then i think we’re pretty much done here. i got a ticket from a red light camera in vienna. on the ticket, it tells you how much you ran the light by.
i ran it by a tenth of a second. attempted to contest, failed. if you think that is a valid reason to be fined nearly 10% of your take home income for the *entire year* (VA was $32k and change last I checked), then we’ll simply agree to disagree.
i think the difference here is that you are willing to sacrifice safety for convenience and i would rather sacrifice convenience for safety.
I’m not saying don’t ticket people for speeding, I just think the punishment is out of whack with the crime.
You mentioned you’d be in favor of lowering the speed limit .. you’d be in favor of dropping the speed limit on I-64 then to 45 or so to save lives? Rt. 29 from 45 to 30? That’s certainly sacrificing convenience for safety.
ha and i think it is funny that you say you “tend to naturally drive what the safe limit for the road is” and then in the next post say you ran a red light.
i would think that someone with such an inherent ability to gauge safe driving would have had plenty of time to stop as that light was turning yellow.
i don’t think i said i’m in favor of lowering the limits. if i did i either misspoke or was just using it hypothetically to make a point or was just not thinking.
i think the limits are fine and mostly safe where they are, if people would just follow them.
i would think that someone with such an inherent ability to gauge safe driving would have had plenty of time to stop as that light was turning yellow.
Yeah, being off by .01 is a gross error in judgment. You want to increase safety? Extend the yellow light duration, have a second or two of ‘all-clear’ time. Not throwing up cameras which increase rear-end traffic accidents as people lunge to slam on their brakes the instant the light begins to turn yellow.
Of course, the state doesn’t make any money that way, so it won’t happen.
i think the limits are fine and mostly safe where they are, if people would just follow them.
Well, that’s the problem. People simply won’t. Do you think increased fines like this are going to lead to everyone on the beltway and I-95 suddenly going 55mph?
If it does, I’ll be downright stunned and will gladly concede the argument. I was just up around NoVA/DC 2 weeks ago though, and I certainly didn’t see any noticeable change in driving habit.
ok, well first i’ll start off with the obvious, and point out that a tenth of a second is .1, not .01.
second, unless you weren’t paying attention to the light, you had more than .1 to react. you probably had about 3-4 seconds of time where instead of slowing down, you decided to risk it and try to beat the light. well, you lost, and i think the fine is fair.
extending the yellows wouldn’t do anything but make more people try to run them. you would still have that last person probably running it.
ok, well if its not going to change the behavior, at least it will be raising money. i mean i would prefer it to change behavior and raise money, but i’ll take one of the two over none.
my apologies on the decimal error.
i was right behind a truck, and main street in vienna during rush hour is bumper to bumper traffic. occasionally, it is not possible to see the light because you simply can’t see through a truck. i don’t think i was even going close to the limit because it was rush hour.
stuff like that *happens*. it shouldn’t be subject to a blanket multi-thousand dollar fine. that’s simply ludicrous.
ok, well if its not going to change the behavior, at least it will be raising money.
if raising money is the goal, why not just raise the gas tax then?
extending the yellows wouldn’t do anything but make more people try to run them. you would still have that last person probably running it.
had you read my post, you would have noticed the 1-2 second of ‘all-clear’ time would have allowed for this. that doesn’t make running the light any less illegal, and it certainly makes it *safer*. which should be the goal of the government, instead of wondering the best way to subversively tax it’s citizens next.
sounds like someone needs to work on his following distance…
sounds like someone needs to work on his following distance…
i knew you were going to trot that out. try leaving the stopping distance (*18* car lengths at 60mph) in rush hour traffic and let me know if you ever get home, or if having people constantly cut you off causes an accident.
Chad wrote: if raising money is the goal, why not just raise the gas tax then? (Sorry I can’t italicize-S.)
I agree completely. The GOP-controlled Assembly was too timid to raise the gas tax, when the additional revenue that would be generated from a higher gas tax is desperately needed for road maintenance, and tried this way of raising revenue for roads as an end-around. If they raised the tax and kept the fines as a safety matter to encourage better driving, I’d still be fine with it. At least they would be honest about it in that fashion.
I agree w/ TMR – this is a great way to improve safety and raise money. Driving is not a right, it’s a privilege, so don’t abuse it.
That being said, I also think the fact that it doesn’t apply to all drivers is ludicrous (a loop hole likely designed to not discourage trucking; freight is a huge part of VA’s economy).
And yes, Chad and Stormy have a point. We really should raise the gas tax as it is about as close to a user fee for transportation as we have. (We’ll probably have to wait 100+ years for congestion pricing on secondary roads)