Downtown Grocery
I love my birdies. Thanks very much people. We’ve speculated about the Downtown Grocer a lot recently. This popped in my inbox this morning:
The [Downtown Grocery] store has fallen through and is now in contract talks with two devcelopers- 1 for an Irish Pub and 1 for a Starbucks!
Turns out that the speculation was correct, to expensive an upfit for the profit projections.
Are you kidding me a Starbucks on the Downtown Mall? PLEASE NO. Keep it pure (i.e. good/local coffee only). Starbucks is essentially my arch Nemesis, and I will do everything in my power to stop it.
New Restaurant Above Escafe
I don’t have any deets on this puppy, but apparantly there is something new and high end coming above Escafe. D/R told me they heard “better steaks than Downtown Grill and better fish than Blue Light.” It won’t be hard to beat the steaks as far as I’m concerned.
Related posts:
- News from the Rumor Mill: High End Steak House + Bourbon
- Grocery Store and Deli to Open Downtown
- Restaurant News: Aqui Es Mexico and Escafe (aka “The Cafeteria”)
an irish pub would be awesome on the mall. too bad it will probably be the typical bad american facsimile of an irish pub. i really wish someone would open an english pub in this town. complete with the “order at the bar” style of service. given the level of service i usually receive at local restaurants (with a few exceptions) a proper english pub would be a godsend.
Court Square Tavern is your next best thing, Blanco.
I really hope we don’t get more chains on the mall. It’s so charming with all those boutiques.
Yeah, fuck a buncha Starbucks with their goddamn pay-for-internet WiFi nonsense. I bought a cup of coffee. You give me internet. That’s the deal, motherfuckers.
I could honestly care less about a Starbucks or not, but I do hate those fake Irish pubs with a passion.
Court Square Tavern is your next best thing, Blanco.
ha! tell me about it. last time i went in there, i practically had to make my own sandwich since the guy behind the bar was wholly uninterested in serving me anything.
Can we separate the fake Irish-theme bars from real bars that resemble Irish bars?
Irish-theme bars *cough O’Neill’s* that draw college drunks and play Timberlake are lame. Yes. But they serve cheap cold beer, and they’re not claiming to be authentic.
Some bars are deemed Irish bars just for being old, having a “My goodness! My Guinness!” sign, and maybe (if they’re lucky!) having been owned by an Irishman at some point. Real Irish pubs had Guinness and Harp signs first. That’s… where they came from. So if you like European beer… uhhh… it might seem like a Kilkenny bar minus the amazing people hanging out, accents, and musicians.
Re: the space above Escafe, which is now Al Dente, right?
My rumor mill, about two months ago, said to look for some upscale southern food, much like Maya, I guess. However, everything sounded very tentative. What Thor’s heard is probably more valid.
Dan, did you get my comment about the meatloaf?
you know you’re in a real irish pub when they give you a dirty look for calling it a “black and tan” instead of a “half and half”.
I find “upscale southern food” to be an oxymoron. I mean, I’m not bashing the South. Since when are hominy, scrapple, and fried chicken upscale?
Lilith, Just got it. Will send you an email later.
Ethan, I tend to agree on upscale Southern Food being an oxymoron. I mean, to be sure, OUR food is not upscale. Could we make it upscale? Maybe. We could use crazy expensive ingredients and such. But then maybe it would cease to be southern? I feel like Southern, comfort food just has this connotation of being comfortable and homey. Just a guess, but most people probably don’t want their collard greens finished with truffle oil, or their mac and cheese garnished with caviar (I’m just making stuff up now–I don’t know a restaurant that does either of those things). But then again, maybe upscale wasn’t the right word to use (since I started this probably false comment). Southern fine-dining? Southern-inspired cuisine? Maybe those are less contradictory?
The odds of Gabe Silverman renting space to Starbucks are slim to none.
The word “scrapple” cracks me up.
Now that that’s out of the way…I’d love to have a real Irish pub here…along the lines of Matt Murphy’s or Dunn Gaherin in Boston. Even something touristy like The Black Rose, where there’s always great, traditional music would be wonderful. Unfortunately, I fear we’d get something along the lines of a Fadó.
I just ate at Al Dente last night for the first time — the atmosphere is gorgeous, the food very good, but I think the problem is the same as with Eastern Standard before it — it’s so hard to wow Charlottesville in the fine dining genre when there’s stuff like Palladio at our fingertips. I saw only two other couples in the restaurant while we lingered over our meal — admittedly, it was a Tuesday night, but I’m guessing the trade there has been less than brisk. Anyone know if they’re rumored to be selling, or just shifting the concept?
I think there are a lot of big-city bars that kind of straddle the Irish-themed / Irish-inspired line. I’ve been to “Irish bars” in Chicago and Boston and DC and San Diego, and Ireland, and they’re all fun. I mean, why are we picking on Irish bars at all? Honestly, I LOVE drinking great beer listening to the Dropkick Murphys. Are we just hating on O’Neill’s because it was a toolshed that ceased to be Irish-like except for its name years ago, or on Fado because it’s a chain bar? Here’s what I actually like about Fado’s. They charge the same for a Bud Lite as they charge for a Harp or Boddington’s, and rails are very expensive. It’s their little Irish passive-aggressive way of saying “fick YOO!” to the tools.
There are no irish bars in Charlottesville. Ct Sq is a British Pub. And the food has gotten a lot better there.
I would love a real Irish bar–which would include the Chieftans and Van Morrison along with Guiness and harp, and probably a surly wait staff.
Really, the closest thing to an Irish bar we’ve had used to be Millers.
I for one think the Dtown grille steaks are good….at least the veal chops and the ribeyes. They don’t know how to cook a strip for shit, and I never get the filet, but what I’ve had is good. Plus, they actually have decent wait staff, which is a novel concept in Charlottesville. The manager there, Robert, is a great guy as well.
Re: Star$$$
I can understand Gabe’s (or anyone’s) reluctance to be the one who brought a Starbucks downtown, but taking the landlord’s perspective, I wouldn’t be surprised if Starbucks paid above market rent, as well as for their own buildout. Not saying this means we should have a Starbucks, but I could see how they would appeal to a landlord as a tenant. I would also guess having a Starbucks in your building would increase the buildings value.
My personal dream was for that space to be an Apple Store (which I think would KILL here), or a cool record store, or of course a grocery store.
Re: the dente.
If anyone is really dying to know the scoop, I would just talk to whoever owns the building. Or Escafe may know something, since it is just downstairs.
I would bet that Gabe would take less $$$ from a Starbucks than an independant because he knows that the cash is there for the buildout and that the rent check comes from corp headquarters and the money is always there at the first of the month.
But the buildout is a killer and if a place is not able to nail the sales then you have trouble. And the downtown mall people are more sophisticated than the average Starbucks customer. They know they can get better for cheaper at 4 places within 2 blocks. So they are fighting the balance of higher profit than an Irish Pub vs. lower sales…
I hope Silverman works with the Pub and does not bring corp crap to a mall. Keep the profits in the city.
danpri,
I agree on most counts. I think Starbucks does less sales than a successful Irish Pub, but I could see Starbucks paying higher rent as well. Not necessarily for any reason other than being out of touch. Like you said, Downtown is generally too savvy to go there, but maybe Starbucks thinks they can take business from the 4+ local coffee shops already here. Maybe they think there’s all these coffee shops b/c Downtown is just waiting for a Starbucks. And while I think most of Downtown wouldn’t go to Starbucks, there are still plenty who would (i.e. tourists).
I’ll also stress how big of a deal buildout is. Turning what was A&N into a restaurant or coffeeshop will cost in the hundred thousand dollars range. Maybe 2, maybe 3, but certainly over 150. Electrical, HVAC, plumbing, flooring, lights, and the list goes on.
The Chieftains represent an Irish pub to you crud buster? They would be laughed out of any pub in Ireland (excluding the one band member’s of course). While talented, they went the commercial route and sold out. No one in the Irish world respects them for anything other than knowing how to sell themselves. And Van Morrison? Now I know you are joking about wanting a real Irish pub…
Irish Pub music or not, I dig me some Van Morrison. Have you seen The Last Waltz? He just belts out Caravan, conducting the horns, kicking his legs. Pretty awesome. And then he bows and walks off stage before the Band finishes playing, leaving Robbie Robertson slightly amused. “Van the Man everybody…” I wouldn’t call Van Irish music, but his early stuff (all I know) is really soulful. Nice horn arrangements too.
Guinness schminness. That’s the stout for people who claim they have great taste in beer, but don’t really know anything about it. Practically every bar in America has Guinness on tap. I’d love to see other Irish beers that don’t get as much circulation in the states. An Irish-styled pub would be great, but I fear a Starbucks might be more likely.
I can’t imagine that we’d see a record store on the downtown mall. With as rapidly as the music industry is changing right now, it would be a very poor investment to open one. There are already two pretty good ones in town.
All of this downtown grocery bit is sooooo tiring. Downtown already has a grocery. Reid’s is the perfect example of a community grocer. Canned food, local food,organic food, they have it all. And, their meat dept. can’t be beat. It’s what a grocery store should be. I shun H.T. & W.F.! You can fill a cart with Benjamin easily. Can’t do that at one of the big boy chains.
check it out, see ya there.
I agree. You can’t beat Reid’s meat.
We have grocery stores downtown. I’ve been waiting for someone to mention Reid’s…we also have C’ville Market which is locally owned, has good quality and selection and is close to Downtown. If, as a customer, you need more, then talk to the owners yourself.
Plus, y’all better get ready for the corp chains to invade the Mall because the cost of real estate, property taxes, burdensome gov’t regulations, insurance, and so on make it very hard for small businesses to survive. That’s why we should support small-locally owned businesses and seek a city gov’t that is much more frugal.
Y’all forget how A&N came to be there for so long. Gabe let them skate by without rent increases for years because he knew how important that they were for low-income downtown residents. A&N finally shuttered that location — despite the super-cheap rent — when they opened their Pantops location, presumably because of staffing costs. Gabe could have rented that out to plenty of retail shops in the interim, but he’s wanted the right tenant, somebody who will fill a need in the community like A&N did. Now, it’s possible that he’s changed his mind on that — I haven’t talked to him about this for at least a couple of years — but Gabe’s pretty stubborn, in all the right ways.
Yep – known Gabe since ‘95. If he owned all of the mall, I’d be comfy in the future direction….
Not true. Ethan, you’ve got to stop with the absolutes. Take this advice in the spirit in which it is given: once you make a stupid, absolute statement, the rest of your argument, whether valid or not, is seen as ridiculous.
And onward……Gabe isn’t going to let a Starbucks happen downtown under his moniker/lease. Waldo is right, on many different levels. First and foremost, the first landlord who lets a major national chain downtown becomes a target. Gabe knows he needs to keep relationships local or he won’t be given future opportunities. If some national chain is going to invade the Mall, it will be done by an outside developer, not a local.
Whomever said people won’t go to Starbucks, sorry, that’s not reality. You think the denizens of downtown won’t be in line to get their latte? It’s happened in every town/city Starbucks has entered……they kill the competition (errrrrr…….helllo……Wal*Mart). People (the masses) love name recognition. If you think Starbucks wouldn’t be successful on the mall because of some integrity thing, you are mistaken. Starbucks would immensely successful, the question is, who would let them infiltrate?
Drunk posting with my family in the background is fun! How’s my typo ratio?
I spot only one: an errant “whomever” (should be “whoever”). Otherwise, lucid and making good points. Huzzah!
Now: keep drinking.
Finally, a subject I actually have some knowledge about. I’ve worked in several Irish pubs/bars in big cities and Charlottesville doesn’t really have the capacity population-wise to pull it off. However, a really good Irish bar is more about the vibe than the accents, and there’s no reason why someone couldn’t pull that off.
Simple bar food done well (not “Killarney nachos”; see here for example: http://www.standardtap.com/ ), local beers plus the good Irish imports, host traditional music sessions/readings on the slow nights, satellite hook-up for the all-Ireland matches, have a staff that really works to have the convivial, welcoming atmosphere and you can have a great Irish bar right in our lttle ‘ville.
Let’s not make Gabe out to be a saint. He took a lot of Federal money to fix up the train station and parking lot, and pocketed most of the money without doing anything. Anyone driven through the parking lot by the train station? Don’t get me wrong, Gabe has done some good for the area. But he is not much better than Lee Danielson.
Oh shut the fuck up Samantha. I bet 9 out of 10 bars in town have Guinness on tap, so who gives a shit if there’s another one.
Your description sounds great KCB. A place like that would be nice, and nothing pops to mind as fitting that description. Perfect place to watch the world.
And Samantha, on whether or not Starbucks would be a success, you’re probably right, but I wish you weren’t. I started drinking Starbucks in high school (about 13 years ago), and I thought it was amazing. I grew up in a house with tea, not coffee, drinkers, so whenever coffee was made at home, it was off – too light, too watery, etc. So then I have a cup from Starbucks, and it’s dark, and rich, and I’m just blown away. Granted, I’m a 16 year old kid in a big city (ATL), and the big coffee shop thing hasn’t really happened yet. I’m thinking Starbucks is the best coffee. Period. But what did I know. So then in college (here) I convince myself Starbucks is the best coffee because it’s consistent. Some shops had better tasting coffee, but at Starbucks, I knew what I was going to get. Maybe not the greatest, but at least it’ll be the same, and that was good enough. However, let me also say that I was drinking drip coffee, and not espresso, and also that this was before Starbucks had exploded everywhere. This was when the Starbucks in town was on the Corner, not when there was one in every grocery store. I feel like Starbucks has severely overstretched itself.
Nowadays, being a “little guy”, I like to support the little guy. And I think a lot of this town does too. So with that line of thinking, I would expect a lot of people who currently go to: Mudhouse, Java Java, Splendora’s, the Coffee Hut, Shenandoah Joe’s, etc. to keep going there, even if a Starbucks opened across the street. Especially Downtown. Not only supporting the little guys, but buying a better product.
I’m not anti all chains. I applaud when a chain be a chain, and still offer a great product, and do good. With Chipotle for example, 1) I appreciate their efforts to use local and free range products, and 2) I like their burritos. Starbucks may have been like this once, but it’s not anymore.
Dan, yes!
Ethan, I quote Crowded House when I say: hey now, hey now.
Upfitting that joint is going to go way past 150K. Heck, it cost more than that for that Salad Creations Place and they had clean space and full power already run.
BAR will require opening up all the windows that were covered, removal of the poll in the front corner and you do not even want to know the pain that the stairs to the basement will be for the refit. We are sitting on 6 figures already.
It was the insane cost that sent Littlejohns running and turned Baggbys away from expansion.
Plus, any construction company kills you on the mall due to the complications and problems. You know how hard it was for the guy before you when he redid that space. Two companies and 8 months longer than he anticipated.
The grocery store had the construction dudes looking it over and then about a month later it unraveled. I will let you guess as the back and forth of the contracts and detials.
i heard the al dente space is going to be a moroccan restaurant. pretty good source, but who knows anymore………..
To Waldo,
Does the air ever grow stale way up there? To quote Eddie Dane : “Mr. Inside-Outsky”.
Also, please let us know all of Gabe’s and Allan’s plans. Boy, it felt good to drop a name!
Re: Al Dente
Moroccan would not be a total surprise, as I think the current proprietor is a Moroccan.
Re: A&N
You’re right danpri, buildout for whatever is going to be there is going to be big. That’s why sometimes I think the only way it works is for a big name who can afford to shell out big dough.
I own a share of the ESCAFE building and business. No chance it’s for sale and as to the restaurant planned for upstairs…you will all find out in due time. Love the gossip here, not fond of the blatant hatred and cuss words. But fortunately this is still America, so have at it.
Blacksox: fortunately for us all, most CVillains tend to be witty as well as profane. Truly a winning combination, that! Where else will you find bon mots to greet friends and co-workers with such as “Suck a turd out of my ass”? Heartfelt thanks to Cripsy – Nanna loved that one!
blacksox: welcome! Blame everything on Ethan. As an absolutist victim, he thrives on it. Cussing, war, it’s all the same.
Okaaaaaay. Your articulate response will definitely make me stop dissing your idiotic posts.
Wah, wah, wah, I’m Ethan, I respond to disagreements with “STFU”! And, oh, btw, I tell people to shoot themselves! I’m taking up Norman Mailer’s articulateness, since he died. /sarcasm
Stanley, I was doing “show and tell” with some of my less-tech oriented family members when I made that post. Trying to explain a “blog” to Uncle Bud (72 years young-ish) was a fun thing. I typed and then it………..appeared!!!!!! I need to keep reminding myself that some people think the Internet is just a giant repository for porn. They have no idea what goes on.
Blacksox, as Lillith said, welcome. The hate is minimal, really, compared to most blogs. Ethan has a crush on me and like a typical 12 year old, he’s dipping my braids in the ink well to show his love……..it’s just a sideshow, don’t focus on that, focus on the interesting conversations, most of which are very cool, with high level disagreements that don’t involve name-calling. (unlike this one…..ba da bing)
haha samantha, one of the best flamer responses i’ve read yet
ethan, be nice.
Reids is great for grabbing something quickly, but the selection is extremely limited. I doubt I could get everything on my shopping list there.
I love Cville Market.
Thanks Thor. Trying to keep it a level above most silly, blog flame wars.
The Upstart, thanks for getting this thread back on track. I agree that Reid’s is limited and Cville Market is great. But, you can’t really do grocery shopping at Cville Market, can you? I mean, sure, to a point, but not really if you’re walking and you live downtown.
Everyone always brings up Reid’s when a downtown grocery is mentioned and it’s not just a real…..grocery. And while I love Cville Market, I can’t walk there and then carry my groceries home. A “real” grocery on the Mall, physically on the mall, I think, would be a great success. But then again, I’m a backseat driver and armchair quarterback, so what do I know? I think I’d be rich already if I had good ideas. And I am not. I am posting while drinking $11.99 bottles of wine, not $98.00 bottles of wine.
Except, c’mon, a real grocery store on the Mall would be fantastic. Every other town with a “downtown mall” (hello, Boulder and Burlington!) has set the stage for a successful grocery. Am I right? Why is this so difficult in Charlottesville?
FYI…my boyfriend just called from Reid’s, where he was picking up eggs for the big breakfast I’m going to make this morning. They’re closed. Next stop: Harris Teeter.
In my last city, I walked to Trader Joe’s and did almost all my shopping there. A lot of people there shopped in the “European style”, picking up a few items each day to make that night’s dinner. It’d be great if that would work in Cville, but I’m not sure enough people would buy into it.
I would – definitely. Has anyone talked to the owner of the market on the mall about re-opening on weekends – with the additional influx of housing over the past couple of years (Holsinger, Norcross (which is about to break ground on another building), plus the upcoming units at the Gleason, there might be enough foot traffic to get him to stay open every day.
That said, Market Street Wine shop is a good, if very limited, source for some foodstuff groceries on weekends.
Samantha: I love that you just mentioned Boulder and Burlington! I feel really lucky to have been to Boulder several times, and I road-tripped through upstate New York a few years ago to see Burlington. UVM is one of the more beautiful college campuses I’ve seen but so rarely does it get credit for being such a great all-around school. (Click here and here for images.) A couple of other cities with comparable “walking malls” are Minneapolis, Boston, Denver, Santa Monica… I just can’t imagine any possible disadvantages to a city bricking over a commercial street. (Bueller? Bueller?)
I love Reids for one other reason than it seems to remind mof the neighborhood markets of my childhood, with, no doubt some actual canned products *from* my childhood on the shelves. That other reason? They sell pigs feet in styrofoam packs of five! This has kept me up nights seeing as nature so clearly packages them in packs of four.
Its the little things.
Ha!
I think we need to say STFU more often. It’s the anti-passive-agressive. Then again, I am a pottymouth.
STFU
(tell me you didn’t see that one coming)
My mom just did a perfect impersonation of Eric Cartman going “son of a bitch!” over the phone. It’s as though cuss words don’t have meaning any more!
cussing has definitely lost its impact……you just don’t notice it as much. Now if Queen Elizabeth dropped an f bomb……. That would get noticed…………..
I have from a very good source that the space above escafe will serve food for people who are bored with food in cville, as well as a wine and drink list that will be very high end.
I heard terms like bone marrow, sous vide, and scotch flights.
I also heard that they are building a wine room in the space with a private dining room.
are they serving it in a cup?
good morning sil….thanks for an awesome night! Sorry about the first part of the eve.
Mornin’ sunshines.
so much makeouttage….
i have a new villain crush….
what? who????
a hot chick….
I wish people would stop referring to me as a chick…
Here you are…
I promise I will never go to 216 again. and leave at 4:30. when I’m sick. what was I thinking? uuuugh
Caroline, everyone, last night was truly a pleasure. The 216 part is the only part I’d change.
Stanley! You didn’t get abducted, did you?
oy you hot chick you…did you see that kiss at the end??
Hips I love you!
*smooches*