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When I dine out with my parents, I order the wine for me and my dad. He knows I will revel in it more than he ever could, and I know he will retract my open invitation to come home if I choose an expensive bottle. He even finds me to be quite reliable in choosing something we like. (To that, I say only this: Argentina.) He and I are positive individuals, so we approach unpleasant wine the way we approach Chanel No. 5: “Mmm, musk!” We don’t really discuss wine at too much length at the dinner table, because we have acquaintances we’d rather not sound like (and probably aren’t qualified to do so anyway).
A couple of weekends ago, I had the pleasure of dining with mom and dad. Per usual, I ordered the wine for my dad and me, and per usual, it was a great bottle of wine served wrong. –Or so we thought. I finally pointed out after our server had returned to the kitchen that we are never served in the right order, and my mom –not a wino, but quite the foodie– thought it was worth sharing with the villains. She said she figured that if I cared enough to point it out, there must be people who care a lot more than I do, and I should research it for the villains. Now, having done that, I underestimated her. She wisely assumed that if we thought we were always served incorrectly… well, we were the common denominator in that estimation.
Without further ado. She asks, and I answer:
What is the proper etiquette for serving wine at restaurants, and what’s all the fuss about?
Before I get to the gender issue, know that the best way to serve wine is as soon as possible after the table is sat! Wine will cover almost any faux pas in a restaurant (except, perhaps, a merlot spill on cashmere).
The default is to hand the wine list to the man, though it is acceptable to leave it on the table between the two diners. With a group, if there is not an obvious host, ask. If a woman requests it, she gets it.
Usually, while servers decork, they fill the air with awkward silence. (Audible sigh.) I like it when servers ask if there are any questions about the menu as they open the bottle, or to describe the wine. I like to see servers use hinged corkscrews, and I really like knowing their chef or manager has taken the time to see to it that every server knows how to use it! Here is what I was taught, and what I learned people wanted me to do.
- If the man tastes: After he tastes, the woman’s glass it to be filled, then his.
- If the woman tastes: After she tastes, her glass is to be filled, then his. The woman’s glass is always filled first.
- After the taste, in a group: Women’s glasses are filled first, then men’s, clockwise from the host. Servers should know how to gauge glass levels to be even without picking up the wine glass. (This can be practiced with water.) If there are six or more diners, the server should ask the host if he or she is to finish the bottle on the group. (That’s not official, that is just experience, and the answer will likely be “yes.”)
Ever heard of “two truths and a lie”? You just played it. The host’s glass is always filled last, male or female. Hosts who know will appreciate the courtesy, but in my experience, many hosts do not. They’d hold their glass out or do the eye-flicker between me and their glass. Until I researched the question, I genuinely thought I was supposed to get the first full glass when I ordered. And if I stop ordering wine, I will! I felt really embarrassed (and glad I’m not the glass-tapping type). What is a server to do?
It gets more difficult with each layer of circumstances.
Try this scenario. It comes up more often than you’d think, much to my dismay. If the host decides that all will continue to drink the same wine, ask each individual if they would like to finish the contents from the first bottle before adding wine from the new bottle to it. Most people will not care, but the few who care will care a LOT. It can be hard to track old/new; when in doubt, ask. If they’re drinking red, retrieve it and decork it right away to air it, and leave it on the table. If it is an expensive bottle, DECANT! If they’re drinking white, ice it. (Are your eyes glazing over yet? Could you use a splash?)
The following scenario is my least favorite. It’s the server’s job to refill glasses. If the group is sharing a bottle, there is always one person who is going to drink faster than the others. If it is the host, beautiful! Attend to the glass until you’re told to stop. It is their party and they can slur if they want to.
But it’s rarely the host.
Suddenly, the woman in seat 5 is talking loud about her son failing out of STAB, and did she have that lisp when I took her order? And someone should save that bra strap from capsizing to her elbow, really. Oh God. She’s tapping her meaty steak knife on her wine glass. It’s like that. In this case, it is not up to the server to make the judgment call unless the individual is bad enough that ABC would step in. Just go a little lighter on the pours and do not make disparaging looks. Until you are safely in the kitchen and the door is closed.
Even pronunciation produces issues. A lot of people point at a wine list and want to hear the name of the vineyard or grape said for them. But if the table is calling it “San-cars,” the server has to let them. A correction of “Sancerres” is only going to embarrass diners on a special occasion. When I served, this was the one tip I needed more than the extra 5 percent.
All of the scenarios illustrate one point I never really got: it’s not about the server. A great server is perfectly pleasant, and perfectly forgettable.
So back to the original question: what’s all the fuss about? A lot of servers genuinely do not know what they’re doing. They’re assumed to know when they’re hired. And there’s definitely a divide between what the rulebook mandates and what the paying clientele expects. Being pleasant and forgettable, I think, means going by the rules, with a smile. Fine dining comes with a fuss, too, because people lead stressful lives, and when they dine out, they are paying for two hours in the day to go their way, for two hours that are easy and satisfying.
More than anything else, though, I think the fuss spills over from wine culture. It’s all in the subtleties– the aroma of oak and the texture of tannins take time and patience to learn to identify. And as soon as you get comfortable, the next harvest is released, and you’re tired of that grape anyway. In the way of hobbies, it’s an always evolving one, unique to each individual, and it does not have to be an expensive one. I just love the feeling of a spontaneous special occasion when I decork a bottle. And the way I was raised, no matter how much I do it, dining out is always a special occasion to me.
Worth the fuss? Oh, I’ll drink to that.
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Tagged as: Wine, wine tasting
well said Lilith, and thanks for shedding light on the appropriate practice. i prefer to have the women at the table do everything first, as it’s a courtesy, but i didn’t realize there were more rules than that.
You forgot to mention, failure to abide by any of these rules is punishable by death.
as a drinker, i am irritated when the server refills part-full glasses: 1) i like to know how much i’m drinking. 2) if i’m splitting the cost, especially, i want to make sure i’m getting my money’s worth. 3) if the server refills the glass of someone who doesn’t want it, i’m going to end up drinking it anyway but have to drink it out of their glass or pour it into my own, which depending on our relationship can be kind of gross. 4) i’d like to be able to portion out my wine & not feel the need to hurry through it so i get my share. as a server, i was supposed to empty the bottle as soon as possible, but i empathically never wanted my customers to get all tense about their wine being given to someone else (as i obviously was).
A good server will typically ask before filling any glass. You always have the option of telling the server not to fill your glass.
so i should shout NO! when they try to refill my date’s glass? that won’t get me any…
I’m so glad I don’t wait tables anymore.
my server at Cassis Friday night followed those rules exactly (who was that sdot? He was very good)
It’s interesting– I took out a whole section I wrote about how a first bottle is often ordered by the host but that people will often opt to order a different drink after the celebratory toast, so it’s okay if it’s not a very full first glass, and if there is not exactly one glass or two glasses for each person. It’s rare to serve a table where everyone’s drinking the same quantity. Servers, if you do not know how to portion a bottle of wine for 5/6/8 people and have each glass be even, looking at it from above, fill one with water and learn it. I am incredibly proud of this skill. To a fault.
orchid, completely agree about not wanting my glass refilled until it’s very low. If a server finishes a bottle of wine off between two people in four total glasses, I feel a little down. We’re just getting our appetizers and the end is in sight! Nooo!
Oh God. Someone hand me a 40 and a Lean Cuisine and put me in my place… in front of Rock of Love. I’m sounding snooty, aren’t I? Gahhhh.
It seems to me that all of these problems could be solved if each patron ordered their own bottle of wine and if each bottle was brought to the table, opened, and poured simultaneously. Of course you’d need one server for every guest, but I don’t see how that could be a problem.
Next.
Does it bug anyone else out there that no place in town seems to follow the “serve from the left, remove from the right” rule (granted, a food question, not a wine question)…, even when the space surrounding a table wold permit the practice, which admittedly isn’t often ?
Okay, okay, arcane. I know.
rock of love was SO good last season, but this one i couldn’t get into because none of the chicks were hot.
what really bugs me is when the server stacks plates on the table in front of me. that’s disgusting. and as a server, when customers stacked plates & then handed them to me balanced precariously. no you’re not helping!
@12 Lurker, I was taught that rule, too. But to remember it better, we used “lower on the left, raise on the right.” Which, of course, has nothing to do with being served in a booth, where you inevitably end up passing plates to people located in the far unreachable corners of the universe.
One thing that gets my dad going is if the server doesn’t offer him the cork, after uncorking. Particularly if it is a more pricey wine. Right, right. Smelling the cork is silly and doesn’t really tell you anything a sniff out of your tasting glass won’t, but it will tell you plenty about how the wine was stored. Is it dry and crumbly? Is it completely saturated from tip to tip? Or, god forbid, is it moldy? Also, keeping the cork from a wine you particularly like is a good way to remind yourself of what to look for when you go shopping. Offering the cork to the host should be the rule, not the exception.
Does it bug anyone else out there that no place in town seems to follow the “serve from the left, remove from the right”…
Yes! It bothers me so much that I have developed a phobic reaction to eating out at all. I need three Xanax just to make reservations. Hell, show me a spork and Im weeping in fetal position under my kitchen table for hours.
/daddy drinks because you dine…
Servers, if you do not know how to portion a bottle of wine for 5/6/8 people and have each glass be even… you should be killed publicly by the maitre de.
/wondered what made the tartare so extra tastey?
If a server finishes a bottle of wine off between two people in four total glasses, I feel a little down
I am still in therapy from last time that happened. My immediate and all consuming apoplexy gradually waned into a dull hatred of life itself. Never again. NEVAR! *sob*
/sorry for taking the piss, it *is* kinda interesting, but if anyone is *really* that worried about this kinda stuff, I want to live in your life…
I was expecting that. To that, I say “yes but…” I’m pretty sure a few of the comments are coming from people who’ve been the ones on their feet all night, either in the kitchen or on the floor. It’s the “special occasion” aspect. We live by lots of rules we don’t even notice, but these are more particular and pronounced. And there’s never a special occasion to be an ass at a restaurant.
That was pretty funny though
I feel you. I got a lot of things that drive me berserk that no one even cares about. Poor or ill- considered design. Bad art in good places. A sixteenth beat out of place. Pictures hung crooked. Stupid stuff…
For what its worth, my green bean pound cake was, in fact, served from the left (overs) and removed right (to the trash).
since no one else has, i’m going to go ahead and give an emphatic “THIS” to Shenanigans @6. Waiting tables is an experience everyone should be able to have (if only to give them that “mile in shoes” perspective), i’m glad i did it, but i’m even more glad now that it’s done and over!
So wingnut’s a farker too? I know oy is.
Trippy board overlap. Its going to be very hard to keep my cliches straight. My brain, she hurts.
yeah, totalfarker – greenlit two whole times, baby!
No greenlights, only total when sponsored, but I got a for digit id number. Old Skool baby!
(Im ‘alizeran’)
*four*, cough.
just checked, 6 digit (and, apparently, 3 greenlights)
/grcooper
//knows an admin
///she’s cute!
THIS?
WDTASF What Does This Acronym Stand For?
@24 The urban dictionary knows all, tells all: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=this
The urban dictionary knows all…
This.
serve from left, remove from right? That mix-up bothers me far less than when a waiter grabs the plate of a person finished while others are generally enjoying their meal/wine at a more leisurely pace. This is the rudest! The people still eating begin to feel that they are not on schedule…what , with the kitchen? the next patrons waiting for a table or the person across is ready to leave already????? not fun!
I generally take control of the bottle after the first pour – I’ve never had a server complain.
I like the challenge of keeping my dates’ glass full without it coming off like I’m trying to get her drunk
Whether or not I am trying to get her drunk – and I’m generally not since my dates generally do a good job of getting themselves drunk on their own without my help. Sometimes I think it says more about them. Sometimes I think it says more about me.
guilty as charged…sort of…i’m a Fark Lurker (Flurker?), haven’t posted there in years. i much prefer the company of the Villains!
HOH, i’m sure your dates appreciate your trickiness. i hate when my dates don’t realize that i need to be drunk in order to enjoy the night (because they’re boring or self-centered or fat or…) & they don’t facilitate my drinking.
left/right varies… when do you light the candles? lol it pisses me off when a waiter touches my glass to pour water in it… if we are getting to the nitty gritty… left.. right? who cares? we are rewriting the “rules” of dining out. Casual bistro fine dining fusion is the new wave right? btw… what does that even mean? does food really matter anymore? I think a field trip to Fossett’s (and even they have slacked) should be on the books. **disclaimer*** don’t expect the level of service I am speaking of at my place (or anywhere else around here) either… just being realistic…
god I would KILL for a 7-11 right now.
This is long…and lends to the pretentious vibe I feel on a regular basis in Cville.
Just give me a damn bottle of wine, I will open it myself, I will be COMPLETELY honest about whether or not I think it sucks (and use those terms), then if I do like it I will finish, and probably not share any of it.
Where are all the fun bladder drinkers out there??? Every time I even mention wine or drinking in a comment they come out in full force, yet here we have an entire post on wine and not one box wine comment?
/waiting on all the fun.
Bladder sounds so….drippy. I wholeheartedly prefer “Space Bag”…as in “Horking the Mighty Space Bag”. Then again, I am not exactly known for my class. I’m all about the funny.
Yeah, methought after reading that, “I’m never buying wine a restaurant again!” But as I learned long ago here, some people just want to be fabulous, and who can deny them that? Especially if they tip well enough to support whatever it is you’re doing in your off hours.
omfg…this is Cville at its snootiest. what funking boarding school did you all climb out from under?
holy schramsberg…did I just see the word “decant” in all caps? What kinda tony flippin posh farkin horse-lesson-taking, Keswick-residing, Enniscorthy-owning, Sissy-Spacek-as-a-neighbor-having ragtag band of trust-fund kidults have I fallen into? =)
LaGrape, “you forgot lazy, stupid, and disrespectful”
LaGrape, are you compartmentalizing me? You would be pretty disappointed (surprised?) if you met me! Personally, I think all the “save the indie rock!” commentary over in the CVS threads is insufferably condescending, and at this point, it’s just a trite argument. I think we’ve got a lot of diversity in readership, so I’m trying to cover it all. I happen to think wine is super cool to leran about and fun to drink. Decanting has to do with chemistry, not looking at fine crystal. But it’s okay, I knew how it’d sound, so did my mom…
I am enjoying all this fine whine.
Yeah, no one’s drinking your milkshake, they’re just talking about Amy Winehouse.
@36 oh shut it. welcome to c-ville.
Did I mention fabulous?
Twice now, in fact.
@33: thursday i bought a 1 liter box of Party Wine for less than $4. i quite enjoyed the red and will stock up next time i see it. (the 3 margaritas i had afterwards were a bit much though.) the store also had 5L boxes for $11 but they weren’t as portable.
Just give me a damn bottle of wine, I will open it myself
I think this is against ABC regulations, but I’m not sure. Any restaurant folks care to weigh in?
“Personally, I think all the “save the indie rock!” commentary over in the CVS threads is insufferably condescending, and at this point, it’s just a trite argument.”
I just pictured lillith sipping an expensive red and waving her hand in a dismissive manner and saying:
Oh Gawd Charles, those indie kids are insufferable and trite…would you fill my glass dahling?
UGH.
Orchid you made my day. Have I told you lately I love you?
Stanley, the ABC can kiss my @$$. I am pretty sure you are right though. I am not going to lie they take away all the fun.
La Grape and HOH, I must admit I somewhat agree with you both. In fact, it is difficult to not say I whole heartedly agree, but I have admit it is about where you, what you read, and the company you keep. It is still hard to avoid the stuff air though :S
Yes. Must uncork/open bottles and cans of booze unless your on-license also has an off-license. Likewise, beer and wine stores can only uncork under the arcane rules governing wine/beer tastings.
Why I can’t sample whiskey before I buy it at the ABC store is beyond me. It can cost more and you’re stuck with it a lot longer. But there is no rhyme or reason with the ABC, just arbitrary enforcement
It can cost more and you’re stuck with it a lot longer.
Your doing it wrong.
I do most thungs wrong
@36 yum… Schramsberg!
Wahh wahh wahh. I write one thing that’s not celebrating 2G1C, cheap take-out, or recycling and I’m a snob. “Insufferably condescending” sounds snobby, I’ll give you that, but I had the word “insufferably” stuck in my head and it was going to end up shoved in a comment somewhere. You know where I’d like to shove it now…
I have thoroughly established my snobbery to date, but I’ll be honest. If it’s not a white table cloth place, I am always pleasantly surprised when they “get it right” and don’t mind when they don’t assuming a) I’m not now wearing the beverage b) there aren’t chunks of cork in my drink because someone doesn’t know how to open a bottle tableside and c) the pour isn’t so high that I can’t pick up the glass without fear of spliage (let alone the complete inability to smell the damn thing).
As for white table cloth establishments, we are where we are. In NYC, yes I expect you to get it right. In Charlotesville, let’s be honest… it’s the same 200 waiters/tresses largely hoping from restaurant to restaurant with a few exceptions, so just because he’s at OXO today doesn’t mean he wasn’t at Mono Loco last week, and bad habits die hard. Sure there are exceptions and waiters who know there job is to serve food and drinks, not make my acquaintence, but with the exception of Clifton, Fleurie or Oxo, you honestly aren’t dropping that much coin to expect five star services.
And actually, I prefer a waiter who keeps my glass full (but does ask when switching to a new bottle). I am perfectly capable of pacing myself, and while the motivation may be to sell me another bottle, it feels more gracious. It’s how I entertain when I have house guests because you shouldn’t have to ask for a drink or a refill, it should be offered up automatically. I can always decline, but don’t make me beg.
Maybe I’m getting soft, but as long as I have wine in my glass, I’m usually a happy girl. I’m much more likely to get my panties in a bunch over a bad list (don’t get me started on people who don’t include vintages – it’s be like selling clothing without a size lable) or crappy glasses than a server that fills my husband’s glass before mine.
that being said, I do believe Lilith did a service by letting everyone in on what often feels like the secret rules of wine consumption and leads so many people to dismiss drinking wine because “it’s so complicated.” Just think, to get good at it you have to practice, which means drinking more wine at more places.. how could that ever be a bad thing?
it’s the same 200 waiters/tresses largely hoping from restaurant to restaurant
Keep hope alive!
/couldn’t resist
well played.
Lil’ – I like the post. I don’t much care for wine and shudder at most aspects of wine culture (not the real culture but the current vinophile nonesense), but I love the ritual of dining and applaud your efforts to educate the unwashed masses and their servers. I took your post as an opportunity to learn something new. (Uggh. Now let me go make fun of someone so I feel less of a syncophant)
I enjoyed the post as well, I didn’t really think it seemed snobby, just something different and interesting to read about…Ive never waited tables so I don’t know much about that side of things, and generally don’t pay attention to who gets the wine first, and whose plate gets picked up first etc…but I did like reading about it, so Thanks
oh and I heart wine..so I enjoy anything that has to do with it in general.
oh my god. Let’s think about things from the server’s perspective please!! First of all, we are all only human beings who work very hard and only want to do our best to make you happy. At least that’s how I feel about my job. Secondly, you are not our only table- we have 5 other tables to worry about/please/get extra butter for!!! Thirdly, we make mistakes. We are not perfect and I’m sorry but one bottle of wine is hard to split between 8 people. Even if you do practice it, which I have, it’s still hard! To be honest, I think 2 bottles should be ordered for 8 people. My take on filling glasses is that I always try to fill them when there is only a sip or two left, rather then wait until they are empty. Nobody wants an empty glass, and since I have a million other tables, who knows if I might leave that glass empty for too long. From reading the comments, people all have different expectations and ideas about how they want to/should be served. I generally try to judge each table and serve appropriately. Are they in a heated discussion about their Aunt’s cancer? Asking if they have questions about the menu would not be timely. Are they on an awkward first date? I might joke around with them, slip in a conversation starter, fill the glasses and leave. And as for clearing/serving from the proper side? I always always try to accommodate that but you have to consider space restrictions. Sometimes it is physically impossible. I would rather serve the wrong way then awkwardly reach across another customer. I would also just like to add that we, as servers, are people too. I know that our job is to leave personal issues behind and focus on the customers, but there have been days where I’ve had something truly terrible going on in my head, like a death in the family, and I just wasn’t able to completely put aside my personal issues that night. Maybe I forgot your side of spinach, or accidentally touched the water glass when I went to pour your wine, but when I dine out I always give the server the benefit of the doubt, because you really never know what may have happened to them. Based on some of the comments in this thread, Cville diners need to sit back, relax, and enjoy their wine rather then fret about every last detail. For the most part, however, I have found my customers to be fabulous, great tippers, and very easy going. And B Yo- your comments had me laughing out loud at the office.
Since people are defending the post, I think I will too. Congrats, Lil, on your convictions. F those people who disagree. As Shenago said earlier, “this is C’ville”, after all. Like it or not, there’s a lot more emphasis on wine here than other places, maybe ’cause we’re surrounded by so many wineries, maybe ’cause C’ville does whatever it takes to uphold it’s air of pretention. A little so called “culture” never really hurt anyone.
Before I moved here, I rarely drank wine. Now, we keep a minimum of 20 bottles in our house, and seek good wines whenever possible. I sitll find time to dedicate to slugging BL’s by the case, although my friends from home make jokes about me starting to wear bowties and loafers. Never, I say, never!
But, if you’re in the business of serving or being served wine, it’s probably appropriate to know the ediquette. and how to spell etiquite….which I do not….or care.
oh my gawd my comments were so smileymoticon! if you knew how black this pot is who’s snarking at the kettle, you’d laugh your assets off.
Just like lilith did in post #9, sometimes we know how Horsey-Set we’re sounding, so we have to bulimically vomit out our privilege out with the fat finger of a self-flagellating rant.
Why have I stopped cursing on this board? Did someone ask us all to stop cursing?
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