I was just perusing the Charlottesville Craigslist musician’s blog and discovered a heated debate about paying musicians vs. playing for tips. A local Belmont coffee shop put out a request for musical acts and offered food, drink and tips as compensation. However, this arrangement didn’t sit well with at least one local musician who thinks such an offer is an “insult to musicians” everywhere. I don’t really see anything wrong with playing music for tips or a cut of the door, but I’m curious as to what other folks think.
Is it really insulting to ask musicians or bands to play for no guarantee? Seems to me most up-and-coming bands would jump at a chance to gig out and get some exposure, even if the compensation wasn’t exactly pro-level.
[Post highlights added after the break]
Here is the request that started it all:
La Taza Coffeehouse in the heart of Belmont is looking for bands to play on the patio on Friday and Saturday for the remainder of the summer and into the fall. And although we love our music loud, we are located in a neighborhood and have to be respectful of our volume towards the evening hours. If you are interested please contact Vanessa at nesslea17@yahoo.com or stop by and drop off a demo. We look forward to hearing from you!
**and i guess it is important to note that we are just a small coffee shop (with a great outdoor patio) and therefore we cannot pay $$ but will be happy to compensate with some great food a drinks and of course you can play for tips.
Here is one heated response:
Heres the deal Mr Curious,
a fifth of booze is 750 ml or 25.5x ounces a shot is 1.5 ounces and that makes 17 real shots in a fifth with .1 ounces left and at the average price of lets say 6 bucks a drink, that’s about 102 dollars profit per fifth
a 12 oz beer from the tap cost is about 12cents, and the average price is three bucks so you figure each person drinks three and that’s 8.66 profit per person. Bottled beer is about 5 bucks a six pack, so you can figure that
Then theres the meal, and for me and my honey, I usually end up spending about 75-100 bucks for the whole deal.
So…if Taza has lets say, 100 people there for dinner, they walk away with approx ten grand, give or take, and then you have to tip the server. I have seen bartenders with a beer picture piled with cash, and I as a PRO musician, with a ten thousand dollar investment, walked away with 100 bucks.
In the old days, we used to be treated nicely, with great monetary pay. I would make anywhere from 150-250 bucks per show, but the bars got greedy.
Heres what you do, make sure you sign a contract for a specific amount of pay, and if your brazen enough to play for the door, make sure either you have your own person taking money, (and most bar owners will not allow that because they cant skim the take) or have a person there you know counting heads.
For a bar owner to tell me that they cannot pay me money, just like the cook, or the manager, that’s insulting, and it really should be against the law. We deserve at least minimum wage, or better! Nobody bought my equipment for me, and even though I love to play music, it is a job, just like any other job.
I wont go into the Saxx and Taza incidents, for fear of retaliation, but let me just say, when you get booked at a club, you are at your WORD to complete the job. Theres been several instances that I know of personally, that the management didn’t fulfill their part. And when you break trust, theres nothing more to say!
Now, they want people to play for free…what a crime against musicians!
If you have a lot of time you can read through all the other responses.
[pic]
Popularity: 18% [?]
Tagged as: fight, Free, freelance, musician, play, Questions
Having played more shows in Charlottesville than I can count, with four separate bands, over the past five or so years, I feel like I might have some weight to throw around on this subject. So I suppose the first question I would pose to this offended individual is as follows: Who, exactly, do you think you are?
Playing out and about, one grows to appreciate a few things about being a performing musician. Some of them positive, some not so. It can be competitive, it can be disastrous, and on a good night there is nothing more rewarding. But there’s one thing that’s kept me going since even before first playing in this here town, something I don’t allow myself to forget: doing it for the love of doing it. And I can’t be more clear on this: playing music because you love to play music *IS THE ONLY REASON TO DO IT.*
Getting paid it great, making a career out of it is fantastic, but anyone who’s reached the point of considering a pro bono performance insulting should really consider getting the hell out of the way for the rest of us.
(PS: I caught this earlier and was wondering if another villian would toss it up, or if it were up to me. Thanks for compensating for my laziness, Blanco. I considered throwing myself into that fray but then remembered that Craigslist bickering ranks below Youtube bickering. Still, even if the offended post turns out to have been trolling, methinks it’s a subject worth discussion.)
a beer picture piled with cash, and I as a PRO musician, with a ten thousand dollar investment, walked away with 100 bucks.
(1) What’s a beer picture? I demand actual beer when gigging. Not a visual representation of a beer. Oh. You meant “pitcher”. Never mind.
(2) In my experience, anyone who refers to him or herself as a “PRO” anything, is probably a rank amateur.
(3) 99 more gigs and that $10,000 investment is recouped. Try not to spill beer on your fancy shmancy pedal board.
(4) Geez, what an asshat.
LOL. Anyone that thinks La Taza is rolling away with 10K on 100 customers is smoking serious crack. Pretty much his entire thinking process is lost right about there….
Of course, if you are really good and have a solid following and will pack the place then….well I guess then you already have a manager and contracts..right?
Seems pretty much like the person has the choice to simply go home and keep practicing or take the gig as described. I also suspect that if the writer of the hysterical answer to the request DID generate 10Kin sales he would have a good chance of getting $500. But I suspect that the best he might do is drag down 8 friends who sip coffee all night and leave a TIP for the wait staff. And playing your guitar is NOTHING like waiting tables…..
the beer pitcher filled with cash is mostly likely tips, and if you only walked out with $100 bucks, perhaps people thought you sucked and didn’t want to tip you.
Also the calculations on the “profits” may be correct, but forgot to factor in the fact that a big chunk of that is taken out for paying the staff, and the bills (food providers, gas company, electric company, etc) because nobody likes to eat in the dark.
/agrees with Stanley’s #4
a 12 oz beer from the tap cost is about 12cents, and the average price is three bucks so you figure each person drinks three and that’s 8.66 profit per person. Bottled beer is about 5 bucks a six pack, so you can figure that
this is so inaccurate i don’t even know where to begin.
La Taza making 10k a night? No fucking way.
i bet it was gobbler.
@6 THIS!
Caroline…. either that was so deep, it demanded more brain cells than I have remaining, or you fucked up a link?
nah flooze, i was just agreeing with anti-freeze. It makes me laugh when I hear a coffeeshop makes ten thousand a day!
I think I got served, I’m just not sure how.
Oh cool. I didn’t get my ass handed to me!
@12 why are you missing you ass or did you just want caroline and floozy to handle it?
At this point in the game, I would be happy with non-humans handling my ass.
I still haven’t decided whether I think it is exploitation for musicians to play for tips, since waiters work practically for tips as well. But I do also think that the assumption better music equals more tips is not always correct and that the establishment often times treats musicians and their work more like decoration than as personell. It is frustrating to feel that the bar is treating you like they are doing you a favor. Both sides have something to give and so it should be treated like a business relationship. As stupid as the “heated response” above is, I do like the comparisson between the cook and the musician. Both make art and both contribute to the quality of the restaurant or bar and make the customers happy. I guess all I am saying musicians and patrons should behave like professionals.
Save it for your shrink…
You should know better by now. Everyone on this thread has probably played enough holes-in-the-wall to feel tied to your gripe about playing for tips and a meal. If you want music to pay your bills, and not just fulfill your dreams of performing in front of eager listeners, then you have to learn to pick your battles. If I called a place like La Taza and was told honestly and up-front that I would have no guaranteed money, I would say no, and pass the opportunity on to the dozens of other people who would probably die to have a place like that to showcase for 20 of their closest buddies and just have a good time. The fact of the matter is, once you’ve been paid $200 for a show, you’ll always throw a fit about getting $100. You just get more and more jaded.
There is a big difference between a venue that is interested in putting on your “show” and a restaurant or watering hole that wants entertainment for their patrons. As a slap to the restaurant/coffee-shop/bar owners, it is probably not the best idea to give someone a microphone, ****loads of free alcohol, and pay them nothing to perform for a group of typically unenthusiastic listeners. This could lead to painfully brutal honesty, amplified by a PA, which is never good once you hit the 25th song on your setlist and realize that you have made a huge mistake by organizing this event. Loud F-bombs usually drive away the patrons for good.
We all play music because we love to do it, but we all take the less savory gig every once in a while to help pad the wallet. No one should look to these gigs for artistic fulfillment. Just give it a shot and see how many of your original songs you get through before the 10th person asks you to play “wagon wheel” or “brown eyed girl”.
If you know you are going to play for zero money, then why agree to do it under someone’s roof where you have to play by their rules? Be your own boss – there are people playing outside on the downtown mall for tips, making their own rules, and killing their own dinner. If you’re gonna play for nothing you might as well do it in a place where more people are going to see you, pay attention, and potentially tip.
The good bar/restaurant gigs in Cville (and everywhere for that matter) are hard to come by, and even those rooms come and go over time. You have the opportunity to say no to offers like the one from LaTaza, so don’t blast a restaurant unless they promise you $100, and stiff you at the end of the night. Rants like yours are a sure-fire way to dry up the already shrinking number of establishments that are willing to keep local music alive in this town.
Happy Hunting
Oh, and “Play Some F*****g Skynyrd Man!”
“Alaska Independence Party” - ’nuff said
[…] Read the entire post on cVillain here. […]
Local musician here. I’m not into the idea anymore of playing for free at a cool venue to impress my friends. At this point, all my friends have seen me play multiple times. If I want to play for them, that’s what my house is for. I don’t like the idea of playing for free simply because the venues that constantly have bands make money off customers who come there to see music. The customers may not come there to see my group specifically, but come to the venue because they know local music is played there on the regular. It’s like, we’re adding to your ambience and you don’t want to give us anything? At least feed us and comp us a drink. That’s totally acceptable.
I prefer to charge a cover when we do a full set. A PWYC hat at the door or $5. Sure, I do this for the love. All the money goes into the band expenses anyway. But I don’t like when venues think they’re doing us a favor. I don’t need “exposure” from a one-night stand at your bar. That’s what the internet is for. Plus, there are a ton of venues around. Your neighbor will probably give me a cut of the food/drink, or give the band a full meal and drinks (which, I can’t say enough, is really worth it. Food and alcohol for 4 people drinking moderately is worth a hundred bucks and we appreciate that.)
When it comes to live exposure, the best kind comes from gigs we do for free anyway at fairs, fundraisers and the like.
I wonder who the “Offended Professional Musician” is (or are if there’re multiple). Maybe they can do a benefit show to raise money for themselves.
once you’ve been paid $200 for a show, you’ll always throw a fit about getting $100
This is objectively not true. I played for several hundred over the weekend and will play (and happily) for drinks and food this week. I’m convinced this person/these people aren’t actual gigging musicians.
I get paid different rates everywhere I play. Everyone has always been really cool about it. I haven’t had a decent tip in ages though… but whatever.
/I think crazy tambourine lady should play la taza
This issue is very simple - if you are a musician who is accustomed to/wants to get paid for gigging, don’t take this gig. If you are musician who is happy to play for food and drinks and tip, take the gig and get your music out there. End of story. No need for musicians who wouldn’t take the gig to try and ruin it for others who might.
Um hello, it’s exposure. Which is gud. But you’re right angry musician dude, it should only be about the $$ and not the chance to perform.
Exposure is not the end-all-be-all. Exposure is easy to get. Getting a gig playing for 12 bar patrons or some undergrads in Newcomb is easy as pie. Don’t give me that attitude like money is a bad thing. Every restaurant owner on this planet has money on the top of his mind and being the best restaurant second (if that).
If your band has a long-term goal of being a permanent institution either regionally or locally, then you’ve got to make SOME money doing it, unless you’re a UVA professor with a loose schedule or something. If you’re just happy gigging twice a month on the weekends your kids stay with the Ex, then that’s cool too. It’s not about the musicians. Our goals and aspirations are varied. I’m talking about restauranteurs who are getting away with free entertainment. They pay for the video games. They pay for the pool tables. They pay the fuckin DJ’s (sometimes). Pay us, goshdarnit.
BTW, I’m not the one who started the Craigslist thread, and I’m not really angry because I know how to work the system at this point.
Oh…but don’t even get me started on how local actors are taken advantage of in the lack of payment department. Musicians can at least do weddings and make a chunk of change.
They pay the fuckin DJ’s
Yeah, I hate it when they do that. Its not like being a dj takes any particular skill, practice or equipment or anything…
And its good to know we come last after pool tables and video games in the entertainment world.
/my umbrage, let me whip it out.
I ain’t too proud to play for food and drinks and tips. Sheeiit. Someone hand me a banjo.
Brian’s right. If you don’t want the gig - don’t take it. I don’t see how this is so offensive. On the other hand, if you’re trying to make a living exclusively playing bar gigs in town (and expect to get paid well) - you’re in the wrong fucking city! If you’re in it to have a good time and get shitfaced on the bar’s dime then you’ll always be happy. My solution is to keep your day job and play as much as you are happy doing so. You’re never going to make big $ in this town unless you play frats (and even that isn’t huge $). I’m fucking famous as shit and everyone knows me, too! I feel sorry for you no-names. My guitar alone cost more than $10,000 and it writes half my songs - I’m not complaining.
Also B’yo is way underpaid and I think it’s a travesty that cafeteria hides him in a corner on Friday nights.
/that is all
Agreed, cbob. This isn’t the supportive town that it used to be for budding musicians and songwriters. Breaks my heart.
Stanley, I sure hope by now I’m a gigging musician, or else I’m just a drunk with no skills!
Stanley, I sure hope by now I’m a gigging musician, or else I’m just a drunk with no skills!
There’s considerable overlap, you know. It’s not an either/or thing.
I second that emotion.
@31: Comity!
oh, well, here i have a chance to play the friggin devils advocate again - I HATE that! In any case, it’s not the restauranteurs fault, dang it. The “good ole days” existed because the drinking age (crap, not that again) was 18, not 21. Those kids had a whole bunch of “discretionary income” AND FREE TIME that they don’t at an older age. They spent bunches of money on cover charges and cheap beer, so it was a no-brainer to hire, at a percentage AND base rate, a live band. Now, the “it’s the economy, stupid” rules. Yeah, there’s the ‘net. Yeah, there’s nothing like playing live. So how do we do the dance? We weigh exposure versus income. And figure out what benefits us most.
/damn - hate that I know everything
OK…You all wanted to hear from me, so here I am! Yep, Im the guy who started all the war of words. Yea, I mispelled pitcher, point made, and as far as my calculations, they were just calculations, I never ever thought that Taza could make 10 grand a night, but if you use those calculations, you can come close to profit margin!
You bloggers do understand profit margin right?
Pro Musician, well, Im 50, played since I was 9, 17 years on the road! Ive travelled the world, played in front of thousands. Rank musician, only when I dont take a shower!
Heres what seperates a pro from a novice because you evidentally dont get this,
Truck 30k, PA 60k, Lights 3500, Instruments 15k, Insurance on Equipment, Truck, ME, ASCAP Dues, American Federation of Musicians Dues, Clothes, Sticks, Heads, Light Gels, and time! All that for your enjoyment, and guess what, I had to pay for all of it! For all you people who LOVE TO PLAY MUSIC, please, come over and unload my truck one day, its so much fun! Set up the gear, and then pack it up, you dont even have to play! Just have fun unloading and loading!
Now, one of you said, a lot of the profit goes to the food vendors, electricity, gas and expences. No shit! So, they get paid? For what, dont they supply that suff because “they love to do it”? Lets be clear, I
chose music as a profession, and although I have passion for it, doesnt mean that I shouldnt be paid for my effort. My agent,my insurance co, my mortgage co, my electric co and everybody I need services from dont work for free! So, the next time you go to a concert, and enjoy the band, remember, that theres artists there that paint on air, they sweat, they dont get sleep, they suffer in the name of ART, and they eat, sleep and pay bills too! If you want to play for free, be my guest, Im a working musician, thats my chosen profession, and I take it very seriously.
“We make a living by what we get, but we make a life by what we give.”
So, you listed Clothes in your itemization.
Does that mean you wear costumes on stage? Like… wicked awesome costumes? That would be great.
//Are you sure that you aren’t the JPJ Arena?
Hm. So strident. And all for my enjoyment! I’m the luckiest girl in the world!
Is this Dane Cook Channel? Candid Bloggers? Idiots R Us?
Fat drunk and stupid in no way to go through life!
Yes, Yes, and Yes.
Resentful self-important and assumptive in (sic) no way to go through life!
professor, I don’t think that the small coffeeshops that want to book bands for free expect a 60k PA or a fancy light show, I think they are looking for musicians who are starting out or playing acoustically. No one expects you to load in a truck load of equipment, that’s your choice. It’s for people who are playing music together who maybe have other jobs on the side or bands who just want to practice and get a little exposure, and are happy to have a free meal and some drinks. It sounds like since you’ve been doing it so long and you are much older, smaller venues may not be for you. BUT LUCKY you, “your chosen profession” is being a musician, that’s a tough gig to always collect a check.
I’m confused about profit margin. Lays back in chair and waits. You said “bloggers” when we are the New Media. Sheesh. We hate that apparently. This ain’t no damn blog Mr. Kite. When you misspell pitcher and make some vague “calculations” that are just calculations that aren’t and then wax on about how the proletariat doesn’t understand basic economic theory…ya back that up buster. Condescending without the ability to make lucid arguments to the contrary or debate…a whit. I’m the most famous musician of all time BTW. I use lights and sabers and have hair gel. And, I demand hundreds of thousands of dollars per appearance at Miller’s. But only on Thursdays.
People…and I know this is hard for you to comprehend in your gel world…have actually had jobs that have been horrible and they get no applause, and they get no money, and they expect nothing, and they unload trucks, and they get up every day, dog tired at the end of it, and someone at the other end of the chain is making much more than they are off their labor. But the other end of the chain has paid their dues and they have had to crawl a bit to get there as well. We don’t owe you anything. This world owes none of us anything. You want to play. Play. If you don’t. Don’t. Be thankful you have a gift….Mr. Soul. Is it strange you should change? I don’t know.
I’d pay 20 bucks just to sit across the street and watch the professor load in all that gear onto la taza’s patio.
Speaking of musicians, I heard that bad ass SIR ELTON JOHN is coming to JPJ. And now I have bbbbBenny and the Jets in my head. Hope you all get it in your heads too.
Benny! Benny! Benny and the Jetttttttttsssssssss…
Let me know if I can educate you any more about your
life questions. People, just like me, have had endless
hours loading and unloading trucks with no applause.
But, at the end of the week, I picked up a paycheck.
Im NOT asking to play at Taza. I am asking that
musicians be rewarded for work done. Why is it that
you don’t get that?
1.Blogger (n.) Short for Web log, a blog is a Web page
that serves as a publicly accessible personal journal
for an individual. Typically updated daily, blogs
often reflect the personality of the author. (v.) To
author a Web log. Other forms: Blogger (a person who
blogs).
2. A.K.A. gel paper, Color Filters are used to change
white light to colored light. They are generally
purchased in sheets 20″ x 24″, and can be cut with an
ordinary pair of scissors
3. March 4, 2008 Monday night Charlottesville City
Council passed a noise ordinance 4-1 for all city
restaurants and the downtown mall. All city
restaurants will have a new limit of 75 decibels after
11p.m. The reading is for outside the establishment.
Restaurants are advised to keep the door closed to
keep the sound inside. The council says that if a
police officer takes a reading with the door open then
that will be the official reading. Noise on the
downtown mall is limited to 75 decibels all day. That
includes street performers and restaurants. That
eliminates any PA systems at Taza, and I don’t open
the door to my truck for less than 2 grand
4. Profit margin A ratio of profitability calculated
as net income divided by revenues, or net profits
divided by sales. It measures how much out of every
dollar of sales a company actually keeps in earnings.
Profit margin is very useful when comparing companies
in similar industries. A higher profit margin
indicates a more profitable company that has better
control over its costs compared to its competitors.
Profit margin is displayed as a percentage; a 20%
profit margin, for example, means the company has a
net income of $0.20 for each dollar of sales. Looking
at the earnings of a company often doesn’t tell the
entire story. Increased earnings are good, but an
increase does not mean that the profit margin of a
company is improving. For instance, if a company has
costs that have increased at a greater rate than
sales, it leads to a lower profit margin. This is an
indication that costs need to be under better control.
Imagine a company has a net income of $10 million from
sales of $100 million, giving it a profit margin of
10% ($10 million/$100 million). If in the next year
net income rose to $15 million on sales of $200
million, its profit margin would fall to 7.5%. So
while the company increased its net income, it has
done so with diminishing profit margins.
5. Idiot is a word derived from the Greek
ἰδιώτης,
idiōtēs (”person lacking professional
skill,” “a private citizen,” “individual”), from
ἴδιος, idios (”private,”
“one’s own”).[1] In Latin the word idiota (”ordinary
person, layman”) preceded the Late Latin meaning
“uneducated or ignorant person.”[2] Its modern meaning
and form dates back to Middle English around the year
1300, from the Old French idiote (”uneducated or
ignorant person”). The related word idiocy dates to
1487 and may have been analogously modeled on the
words prophet[3] and prophecy.[4][5] The word has
cognates in many other languages.
This is not a blog. It’s a chablogorum.
@43..
this isn’t exactly a personal journal, but nice try!
seriously give it a rest, you are making yourself look like an ass. La Taza wasn’t unclear about anything and it’s a good opportunity for people to play. no one is forcing you to play for free.
/END OF STORY!
Im NOT asking to play at Taza. I am asking that
musicians be rewarded for work done. Why is it that
you don’t get that?
Because you’re acting like a troll? (You can look that one up in your fancy-shmancy “dictionary” too.)
You’re talking past people who are trying to engage you on reasonable terms but still expecting to be engaged reasonably. That’s a shtick that gets old quick.
But, as someone who plays musically locally and regionally, I do wholeheartedly endorse the notion that musicians be compensated farily. And I think backup planet back @33 gets at some of the reasons why it’s a more complicated scene than back when, um, you were cool.
(Tee hee! Just kidding! Well, sort of. Feel free to make yourself a cocktail, by the way. And we’ve got a bowl of blue—just the blue ones, I swear—M&Ms set aside for you in the green room.)
@43,
#1
this isn’t a blog. it isn’t personal nor narrative/discursive, nor is it individual?
#3
why did musicians and restaurants LET this ordcinance pass? they tried the same damn thing years ago when Williams’ Corner owner complained of noise coming from central place, and about people playing guitar through amps on the Mall. The QUILT store tried to get another one passed years later to stop a guy from playing blues guitar in front of Bizou. Basically, the decision always held that the same ordinance that protects Fridays-After-Sucks protects restaurants and individuals playing in a commercially-zoned area?
what happened? are musicians FAIL for collective action and political process?
#4
is music-playing, like, a HOBBY—see OED for ‘hobby’.
presumably if you get good enough, people will pay you money to play in places where it’s ‘ok’ to play—Paramount, Fridays-After-Sucks, Nissan Pavilion, Carnegie Hall (practice, practice, practice).
shouldn’t one keep one’s day job until one gets ‘discovered’ or ’signed’—it worked for Dave and DMB?
#5
i think argument-from-use, a la JL Austin, those OED citations aren’t terribly helpful. you have the highly politically-incorrect use of it in ‘village idiot’ with implications of mental debilitation or defect, then you have the contempo use which is more like ‘dummy’ but not perjorative usually, and is used as readily amongst friends lightheartedly, and occasionally for ‘ignoramus’, as when Al Franken or some like grammarian and intrepid stylist stretches himself to say ‘Bush is an idiot’.
I prefer the Angel of Music. He lives in the sewer under the Opera and brings me flowers.
ZOMG STANLEYS BACKKKKK!!!!!!!!!11ty
It seems like your career choice keeps you pretty busy
why did you take the open La Taza ad so personally? Was it secretly directed to you or did you just feel that you should take it upon yourself to speak for the feeble masses? I must applaud your selflessness.
49: yeah, and just in time for me to misspell “fairly”.
@49
bless and celebrate Stanley’s return.
if i’d seen his post first, i would have omitted mine.
trying to take up slack in his absence, sorry, and not as well.
@50: Just in time…Otterdung’s being sexist AND dissing vegetarians in the Nicola’s thread…
Stanley!!! This non-blog has gone to shite, just geaux see floozy’s last post to ewe.
FAIL, C, g+e = a soft g like jhuuuhhh
no shen! http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=geaux
/you will be punished.
@43
isn’t LaTaza in a residential area, or mixed-use residential at best. Didn’t they close the pudhouse over there for noise violations?
the hogwaller ramblers and any band Darren Hoyt is in pretty much does/should set the scale for payment of musicians. free food, free drinks, and a few bucks seems like adequate compensation given time to practice publicly, the floozies/groupies swarming over you after the show, satisfaction of vanity, a STEP towards broader public awareness of the group and potential for good reviews and discovery by agents, etc.
dave played for free for years at miller’s and fat-city, and for dirt at frat-parties and opening at Prism for Hogwaller Ramblers.
Though i have no doubt the cover of Margaritaville RAWKS.
no shen! http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=geaux
@56: Yeah, I guess they weren’t French majors over on UD. Spank me.
@58
Shen, did you chase the Music Professor off our blog?
{distant sound of OED pages rustling}
@60: It wasn’t me. Thor called him an ass and Stanley called him a troll. But he called us idiots first. What a fucknozzle.
a blog doesn’t necessarily have to be a personal journal — there are plenty of other types of blogs. not sure why there’s such an aversion to having this place called a blog, when it seems pretty clear it is one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blog
commenting - check
wordpress - check
regular updates with commentary - check
descriptions of events, with photos - check
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blog
Some blogs focus on a particular subject, such as political blogs, travel blogs, house blogs, fashion blogs, project blogs, education blogs, niche blogs, classical music blogs, quizzing blogs and legal blogs (often referred to as a blawgs) or dreamlogs.
so, this is pretty much a blog about charlottesville. hell, the title bar of this post says cVillain >> Blog Archive.
@61
{sound of OED slamming violently shut}
“This next song is dedicated to those idiots (cf ie infra) at Cvillain Blogosphere….”
{opening chords of Kenny Loggins’ classic “I’m Alright”…}
Stanley called him a troll
True, but I also welcomed him and offered blue M&Ms. Do you know how hard I worked plucking out all the blue ones? If he doesn’t show back up and start playing nice, I’m gonna be so upset.
Should have offered him a Mentos and gone and lifted a car.
@64
i think he raised the tone of our blog by offering a bibliography to his comments.
you did well to welcome him. cash, groupies and Blue M&Ms—what more could a rock-star want?
what happened to Belmont Yo—isn’t he in a band AND also a DeeJaaaaay?
do DJs get paid more than bands, because of the value-in-deiversity of tune-age they bring to a bar-evening?
diversity
dickversity
do DJs get paid more than bands, because of the value-in-deiversity of tune-age they bring to a bar-evening?
Hard to compare across genres and venues. Wedding DJs, I understand, tend to make less than wedding bands. A DJ in a hotspot club in a major metropolitan area can probably out-earn even a mid-to-upper-level indie band (like, the kind of band that would sell out a place like 9:30 on a weeknight). Locally, I have no idea what kind of skrilla the DJs are pulling. Bands, locally, as noted in this thread, earn wildly disparate amounts of money, even night-to-night.
“weeknight” s/b “weekend night”
excellent use of skrilla, i might add. we also would have accepted cheddar, duckets, coin, or donkeys.
but not donkeys.
So…somebody would really pay to see the Hogwallas? LOL!!
@72
i think they do a helluva bidness playing barmitzvahs (variously spelt).
same, i use them as example because they have had paying weekly bar-gigs
in downtown cville without more than a month or so interruption since 1991
(one interrupt when lead singer Dyer puntured a lung, another during a brief tour)
that’s… 17 years of steady income?
Now I understand, I am dealing with Hogwaller people…LOL! And you say Dave played for free? hmmmm… You mean Dave Matthews? He played for free? And let me understand, Frat parties pay lots of money to the artists? That all true?
Jeez… with people skills like that, it’s a wonder that you’re doing all of this loading and unloading without help.
/drops a little more troll food under the table.
in Morgan Delancey’s bio of dave and the band, he’s described as playing for drinks at miller’s and fat-city (bizou space), and playing for 50 bucks at frat parties (solo). their famed Pink Warehouse gig they played for drinks adn steve keene paintings, first time together as a band. he opened for the Ramblers solo at a Prism gig attended by about two people and simul-cast on WTJU—a recording is floating around somewhere that could probably fetch you your retirement fund on EBay.
i think frats could give lots of money to artists to play parties, artistic philanthropists and future NEA-chairpersons all, but i doubt that they do.
thanks for coming back to the blog!
@74
there are a couple of independent band managers in town now—there’s this nice kid Chas who owns the restaurant in old Atomic Burrito space… i think he represents a bunch of solo artists and smaller groups, shoving them into gigs around town and kneecapping restaurant-owners who try to underpay????
Otterdung must be like, 89 years old to know all that.
@78
i AM, Dumpling….
And it took me almost 70 of those years
to choke through Morgan Delancey’s
simpering and saccharine sucky DAVE bio,
from which the above 411…
Forget my people skills and lets use my Lester Bang skills. For those of you who dont know, Lester was a critic for Cream Magazine years ago. Im sorry to be so critical, but THR aint ecactly one of the better groups I have ever heard. The question is if the Hogs are getting paid at all. I bet not much. I dont see Jamie flashing lots of cash..LOL! Frats used to pay really good, with a lot of other goodies.
I dont believe that Dave never got paid, thats just too much for me to grasp.
Everybody who passes through Cville, whos good, leaves for better things. Ann Marie Calhoun came through here like a thunderstorm, left to play with Tull, Vai and now it seems is in total demand. I played with Phil Vasser (lynchburg) years ago, and I with TIm Reynolds when he first moved here, I dont think we made much, but we at least got gas money! They are both in demand players now!
I really do like they way you think though otter…..
And thank you for the really nice post!
I don’t think anybody playing any bars around here get much $$.
@81
i think Tim Reynolds and the guy with the Chapman Stick used to play Miller’s Brunches for free, guaranteeing that nobody ever went to brunch at miller’s—one’s eggs-benedict turning to ashes in one’s mouth in the flood of progressive neo-jazz-fusion virtuosi on-de-fly noodling from those two.
John Lindaman was one of the greatest Cville guitarists (along with Tim) ever, even went to Robert Fripp’s guitar school, and made some curious early albums (The Coffeetones) and very pop-accessible later ones (True Love Always). I don’t think he made a panny until Teen Beat signed him.
A lot of the early Cville musicians who later made-it-big worked at Corner Parking Garage—The Happy Flowers, Pavement, The Silver Jews, Yo La Tengo, etc.—-at 5 bucks an hour.
@82
and the nice yogaville kid from Weezer.
I was cleaning my room Saturday and had a flash of insight. I saw this amazing band play this incredible show at Outback Lodge one time: All of 15. Then it hit me, the lead singer is one of our cVillains. He never bitches about $$.
I gave you my music
Made food sales take wing
And now
How you’ve betrayed me
Denied me, haven’t paid me
All I want is french fries
And maybe some wings…
Yea, I wanted to kill that chapman dude….LOL! When I met Tim, he was in the beginning stages of being a mess! Way too many chemicals I think. Houston, Johnny, what a waste! Then we can rant about 5X5, thats another story..LOL!
and the nice yogaville kid from Weezer.
To pick your nit, Rivers lived in Yogaville when it was in Connecticut; the Cuomos didn’t follow the ashram in its move to Virginia. Cf.
@86: I was wondering WTF he was talking about too. Rivers never lived here but he has friends that do.
@86
ah-oh-ah, sorry.
i just remember him being down on the mall now and again, and being super-polite and sweet-natured. he must have been visiting friends at yogaville often or hanging out between early Weezer tours to refresh his ‘practice’ or something.
my mistake.
substitute GoPal or Andy for Rivers, and BellaMorte for Weezer,
and you still have ‘nice kid from cville makes good’ story complete.
what kid of weirdo music fan-nerds ARE you, anyhow?
what’s his shoe-size, Shen?
@90: He probably has tiny size six feet.
some people take nothing forever and never say a word, so whats your point, we should be like this 15 year old, “put the kid in charge”?
@85: Laugh. Hey, Angel of Music. Meet the Professor.
isnt that out of Alien, and is the next line, “shut-up Hudson”
Shut up Hudson.
Dave played for free in the early days.
Anne Marie still lives in Gordonsville, although she is on the road quite a bit.
Chapman dude = Greg Howard
@91
who DOESN’T have tiny size six feet–always safe to assume.
@92
wish i knew more about how Athens, GA did it, to launch all those bands to national prominence in so short a time—and unlike Seattle, without a big-city media behind them. no advice from me…my album went nowhere.
i think bands should be paid basically every dollar the restaurant makes on that evening OVER what they make on the same day-of-the-week when they do NOT have a band (minus drinks and food cost in what they give to the band). no band should play for a flat-rate—too speculative in this town, for the restaurant-owner who is invariably taking a chance on a no-name group when promising a dollar-figure up-front. the waitresses have already benefited from increased tips, and the restaurant has already benefited from increased patronage.
and by the way Shenan, the last time I played the outblack, was five years ago, and I made three dollars, and I swear thats the truth…..and thats the last time I will ever play, or go there!
@98: Lame. Fuck that shit. Did you even get any booze?
@96
did he invent that unlistenable STICK-thing?
can it make stuff that sounds like music, or is it exclusively productive of Windham Hill samplers?
@84 he’s one of them smart musicians. you know, the ones who keep their day job, at least until someone wants to hand them a guaranteed paycheck - but keeps playing and promoting cause of LOVE FOR IT. some bands actually save up to go on tour, book their own shows and live out of a van for nothing more than the exposure and networking.
and for being a self proclaimed professional, Professsor, publicly bashing a band like Hogwaller that obviously plays for the love of it really comes off as totally UNprofessional. I mean shit, if you can’t at least respect others…
/still has an all of 15 sticker on a laptop case
@99
or any good trailer-skank?
/virtue is its own reward
is
ALL OF 15
Darren Hoyt’s band, or Belmont Yo’s?
@97: REAL WOMEN otterdung. REAL WOMEN with REAL FEET. Hey all my normal-sized-feet ladies let’s go beat up otterdung.
American Federation of Musicians says bands should make 2-4% of the proffit. Period.
Around here, like everybody has pointed out, theres nowhere to play. Ive done some private stuff here recently, but no more bar gigs! n 1980 there was 20 places to play. Age limit, Aids, DUI and Club Owners that bought cheap bands killed those days
We need Music Police!!!!! If you suck, they fine you! You cant play anymore until you get your permit to play in public! LOL! That would eliminate a lot of bands that play out today too!!
@103: Neither.
@97
i think bands should be paid basically every dollar the restaurant makes on that evening OVER what they make on the same day-of-the-week when they do NOT have a band (minus drinks and food cost in what they give to the band).
then what motivation does the restaurant have for booking the band?
did someone say Athens? i know all about it. unfortunately this thread is ultra confusing. so I don’t know what to say.
@ 105
Around here, like everybody has pointed out, theres nowhere to play. Ive done some private stuff here recently, but no more bar gigs!
We need Music Police!!!!! If you suck, they fine you! You cant play anymore until you get your permit to play in public!
is there nowhere for to to play cause you suck? I kid, I kid…
really, if you suck, then people won’t come see you. if you are awesome, or you just have a lot of friends who like to come see you play (or both), you’ll always have help with load in and never have a problem playing bars for 30 bucks each and enough beers to get you drunk. a positive attitude helps, and so does hard work. oh, and that whole love thing.
The problem with most musicians, is that they suck at business.
that’s supposed to be for YOU to play.
/fingers rebelling
Understand your a Hog Fan, but, Its my opinion, and lots of others I might add, that they arent very good. Have they EVER been in tune? Not bashing them, just offering constructive criticism.
Get some teeth, learn how to sing, or get a singer, and buy a tuner for gods sake!
@107 yeah.. i don’t see the benefit either from the ‘increased patronage’ he was talking about. if you aren’t collecting $ off them, what’s the benefit? word of mouth on how your place is the place to go if you want to hear music .. but if those people only come on those days, under that system, the owners still see no extra $ from it.
regardless of what’s “fair” or not, it’s all supply and demand in the end.. too much supply of bands competing for a limited number of places to play is going to push the price bands can get down anyway.
@112, who’s a fan of Hogwaller Ramblers? me? never said that. just said they obviously like to play. and seriously, the bashing…
/wonders how a troll got on a high horse
I have a tuner duck….and I can sing, and mostly, I have teeth! LOL!!! No horse yet, not even a high one!
@100 No, he did not invent the Chapman Stick (I guess some guy named Chapman did), but he is probably one of the most accomplished players in the world. Having said that, I don’t particularly like the way it sounds, either. I’ve heard him solo and with other musicians, and it never really sounds good to me.
And lets look at the rest of the bands here in cvill too Whos the best band in Cville now?
I’m interested to hear what you have to say about your fellow musicians, what’s your opinion on the other bands that play frequently here?
@107, @113
sorry—i was thinking in terms of a restaurant deriving benefit every OTHER night from a given night when it was full because of a given band–establishing a regular client-base, etc.
what size are chloe-sevigny’s feet?
i asked first
so otter, it’d be like the band advertising for the place? I can see your point, but unfortunately that doesn’t really happen. the restaurant looks (and smells) completely different between band and non-band nights. some people might make a mental note that it’s got cool decor, and cute bartenders or whatnot, but that’s the sound of fingers crossing.
/hasn’t ever gone to outback for dinner
No more talk of Hogwallers
Forget these Sons of Bill
And chill
Nothing will come of it
Rein in your high horse
And come off of it
Let me give you wisdom
If you want to get paid in this town
Try weddings, bah mitzvahs
Greek parties full of shiksas
Then leave the borders of this vaulted city
Let me lead you to the smaller towns
They don’t know they’re not supposed to pay you
Anywhere you go you will get paid
Get paid
That’s all I want for you
Phantom….put the pipe down and relax for a minute!!!
phantom’s making more sense than any of you guys.
@121
makes perfect sense to me; i withdraw my suggestion EN-tirely. good we have a feedback-loop here, i have been raised from slough of ignorance.
@118 @120
i’d be curious to hear both of you answer, give me an idea of who’s worth seeing now.
@general
thank GAWD we’re through that dark period in town where EVERY band was some kinda appalachia hick group (composed of uppermiddleclass ATM-kids from NoVA) playing on primitive banjos and poison-ivy boluses, singing about catfish.
@125, I read that as “raised by a sloth of ignorance”. did she have small feet?
@119: I dunno, not sure how to measure BUTT UGLY
isn’t she a tall slender french-speaker with big feet and small breasts?
up with the sistah-hood!!!!!!
so were through the appalachia hick group phase….isnt that what Sons of Bull are?
@128: Yeah but all that’s ruined with her man face
@126
i wish i had a cuddly ’sloth of ignorance’ scampering around my home…sloths don’t scamper… languidly hanging from my lampshades and bookshelves.
@129
from what i’ve heard, yes. FAIL. don’t they wear cowboy hats in their posters?
1) no cowboys in VA mountains
2) Brokeback Mountain costumes are so last-year, and those were SHEEP.
sweater-pop is nextwave (again). especially with chick bassists in mini-dresses.
blues chords and celtic-echoes, hair-rock, etc. gone-gone-gone.
@130
true, it’s the aristocratic inbreeding. more manly a face than the scrawny loser in BrownBunny she dumped.
Jeez, PM, what the heck’s got yer dander up? First, if you’re a REAL musician, why the heck are you hatin’ on all your fellow musicians… All the “real” musicians I’ve ever known, and dang, I’ve known quite a few, are generously supportive of their peers. So… if you don’t cotton to their style/genre, could you maybe allow that you, personally, don’t jive with that style/genre? Your posts are so derogatory and insulting, it’s really hard to take any of what you say seriously.
/drop the venom, hey?
(let’s try this again)
I’ve heard that if you cut the venom with a little baby laxative, you can still get street price…
just because it on the radio doesnt mean I have to like it or support it. Just because its on the menu doesnt mean I have to order it or like it. Just becasue its on TV….dotto. These are prime examples of two forms of art, Beginning stages and stages of beginners that never grew. I hate no one. I only observe and evaluate. Its my humble opinion that both of these bands SUCK. Want more?
If it’s on TV or radio, I don’t like it.
First, and most importantly….YOU HAVE TO BE A MUSICIAN….!!! Not a wanna be musician. Dont leave the house without your musician card..LOL!
@ Prof Musack and @ duckduckgoose
i was trying to pester you two before to give us a short-list of local bands worth ‘getting-behind’. I’m pretty out-of-touch. Could you give us a band or two in each of several genres who will either ‘make-it’ or who deserve better-than-average pay and attention from places where they gig and people who might attend their gigs?
it’d help the thread hugely, give restaurant-owners a head’s-up, and keep me from just going to every Rambler’s show and every show in each of the eleventy-twelve bands in which Darren Hoyt exhibits his virtuosity.
Sarah White and the Pearls are awesome. So’s Straight Punch to the Crotch.
solid rock-n-roll, i understand from my hipster pals, good call—sarah ahs always had good bands. i’ve heard good things about Sarah’s The Acorn Sisters project—different genre, and in another genre yet about some sort of hot-five jazz combo with a vocalist, but i don’t know their name or where they play.
Im mute on the local scene, dont know much, but from what I have heard, at fridays and such, nothing to take home….thats freaking sad! Sarah is good, I like her myspace page. Shes got it i think. Not the typical angry lesbian music…like some of the local ladies-LOL! Good luck to her! Shes cute too! Thanks for that tip….I look for her at the local venues!
I second Straight Punch. They’re refreshing. Hey PM, do you ever play for anyone?
oh and by the way, everybody: Straight Punch is the house band at CLAW, which is tonight at Blue Moon Diner. yay!
Straight Punch is the house band at CLAW
has there ever been a different house band? will there ever be? nothing against straight and their luscious keyboard player… just curious. (still, wish it was at least ‘bi-curious punch to the crotch’)
CLAW’s tonight? Suh-weet. So much for getting shit done.
oh, and I have to say Birdlips is a good choice too. They’ve not got much material, but what they do have is great. Oh, and it helps that they’re SUPER DUPER SWEET PEOPLE.
/ahem to disgruntled washed-up musician attitudes
Why yes i do. Regional act. NEver played cville, mostly richmond, dc, md, nc,sc,pa
just curious. (still, wish it was at least ‘bi-curious punch to the crotch’), what the hell does that mean cherry?
@ 147 ‘bi-curious punch to the crotch’ as opposed to “straight” punch to the crotch, professor, a simple play on words. you being all educated and what what, i’d assumed you would have gotten that. by way of further explanation, it was my way of expressing my passing desire to nibble of the female of that band. no biggie, just idle sexual fantasy.
but then again when things need to be explained, i suppose they aren’t that funny to begin with. please, carry on with your lecture.
NEver played cville,
I’m confused, PM. I thought you said you’d played Outback lodge for three dollars.
143: CLAW added the band feature after they moved the party outdoors, SPTTC is the only one… actually on those nights, they’re known as Straight Punch to the Claw. they’ve written a few songs about the event, too, which are fantastic.
birdlips, yes. and don’t forget truman sparks, who’re playing in one week at The Bridge. trog!
@148 just making sure darling…..i got it, i was making a play on words for you..LOL!
@149…ten years ago
@146: And you NEVER WILL WITH THAT ATTITUDE MISTER!
/I keed, I lub you
just making sure darling…
patronization is sexy. its the new black.
i was making a play on words for you..
and that would be? (i didn’t get the syllabus)
Shorter Prof. Music: I DEMAND MORE MONEY FOR THE GIGS I’M NOT PLAYING LOCALLY.
@ I make more money for the gigs im not playing locally, real clubs with free drinks, food and money! hmmm, let me think….hmmmm….yea, its great getting paid what I think im worth!!
@153 Never will what?
@156: that was @146 where you said you never played c-ville
why are you jumpin my ass shenan?
Prof, I said I WAS KIDDING. Don’t want to jump your ass. I draw the line at 42.
is that the entire year of 42, or just until no longer 41?
this 42, I hope. don’t forget your towel.
Lawdy lawdy - this post is still going?
Shut the fuck up all of you. Go make some music and get off the internet.
As ol’ Hank wrote (why aren’t more of you fans?? ya boozers)
“The best poems
it seems to me
are written out of
a ultimate
need.
and once the poem is
written,
the only need
after that
is to write
another.
and the silence
of the printed page
is the
best response
to a finished
work….”
@163 just what i keep tellin’ my son, yo
@164: You base your parenting advice on Hank Williams lyrics? A bold if risky approach, I must say.
Um, thanks for being up…and responding. Yeah, I’m gonna be bold and say that the best parenting advice comes from country songs…
Wanna know more?
Not saying that I have any affinity for country music - I really don’t like country/western, but the message is good.
I do!
You do, what?
crap, now it looks like I have an affinity for cuntry. I just want stories.
And, once again, I win the prize for the only latest night poster on the site, woo-hoo!
what kind of stories - I have bunches
Dang, I hates being the only one up…
its just so lonely
we should prolly take this to the FFA. so as to not to get off topic.
or we could keep it ON topic and take it down to the Future Farmers of America.
off topic??? you gotta be kidding me - there’s no one else up
thread still exists, even in the dark.
/pointing at thread
/scared of the dark
besides, the topic was local musicians, and lord knows they’re not posting at this hour as they’re either playing, or practicing, or boning their wives/girlfriends in advance of the weekend…
@178: That’s not true.
holy in advance, batman. it’s tuesday.
I’m still just trying to figure out who the troll is. I’ve got it narrowed down to Lars Ulrich and David Lee Roth.
um, yes, it is true
and hello, stanley, i must be commenting much earlier than usual to evoke a response from you at this hour
@183: Nah. My gig got re-scheduled. I think you’re right on time.
I’m dying for PM to list all the bands in town and LOL his way through his opinion of each of them. DYING.
/really bored
stanley, i’m honored
Thanks, and I agree with duckduckgoose, who do you like in our fair city, and if you don’t, what doncha??? Charlottesville has been a veritable incubator of talent over the last 25 years and I think you should give it a fair shake.
/just saying, cause my experience certainly doesn’t give a damn
Dont die yet
I wanna know who the troll hunter is??? Jealous boyfriend or girlfriend?
@165 Sorry Hank = Henry Chinaski (Charles Bukowski)
190: most obscure reference to a person ever ever ever.