Our dear Gov. Tim Kaine tried for the third time this week to enact a smoking ban bill for the state of Virginia. He failed once again. Personally, I endorse this ban full heartedly. I wrote about what a shitty breakfast I had with smokers at Blue Moon Diner. Yes I know, it was in the smoking section. But its still obnoxious, just like walking ino Mas with SARS and coughing everywhere. “Oh shit, I thought this was the SARS section?!?!!?”. To all you haters out there eat it, smoking ruins every social event.
Especially for you haters, your saving grace seems to be Gary Pesh, the incoming president of the International Premium Cigar & Pipe Retailers Association. He has a bucket full of research that proves second hand smoke indoor is relatively safe (yes, seriously):
“The Occupational Safety and Health Administration, which is charged with protecting the well-being of employees in the workplace, has established secondhand smoke standards well above the range which might be found in any bar or restaurant,” McCalla said.
“In fact, secondhand smoke air quality testing in such workplaces conducted by the American Cancer Society shows typical secondhand smoke concentrations up to 25,000 times safer even than those already-liberal OSHA standards. And testing by the prestigious Oak Ridge National Laboratory confirms that results of air quality testing of secondhand smoke in bars and restaurants was ‘considerably below limits established by OSHA’,” he said.
Pesh also said that business owners have the right to decide for themselves whether or not to make their establishments smoke-free.
“It’s a basic principle on which our nation was founded and one that Virginia, of all places, should embrace,” he said.
The Governor and the American Lung Association beg to differ:
Secondhand smoke kills 1,700 Virginians per year, according to the Virginia Department of Health. Levels of secondhand smoke are up to five times higher in restaurants than in residences with smokers and up to six times higher than in workplaces with smokers, according to the American Lung Association.
Kaine also cited the economic consequences that smoking exacts on the state. Smoking costs Virginia $400 million per year in Medicare funds, Kaine said, and the state’s smoking tax only raises $160 million annually. “We ask the taxpayers to subsidize the cost of smoking,” he said. “Why would we want to do that?”
So not only does my breakfast have to be ruined, as well as my clothes, but I pay more in taxes for this? Its not just me, it seems a majority of Virginians agree. According to a recent survey by the Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids, 75 percent of Virginia voters support a statewide law banning smoking in all public buildings and workplaces, including offices, restaurants and bars.
While the International Premium Cigar & Pipe Retailers Association says we shouldn’t enact the ban because it will decrease business in a time when we all need more business, Delegate David Englin, a Democrat who represents the 45th District in Northern Virginia, says quite the opposite is true:
“I think it’s important to look around the country and see many other states and localities have done smoke-free legislation and there’s not a single case of a state or locality that has later gone back and undone it,” Englin said.
He also notes that the measure is aimed at protecting the health and safety of patrons – and employees.
“We know that thousands of people die each year not only from smoke-related illness but from illness cause by secondhand smoke,” Englin said. “In an economy like ours we can’t force workers to choose between their jobs and exposure to cancer-causing secondhand smoke.”
So villains, what say you, to ban or not to ban?
[pic from saudi on flickr]
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Tagged as: Blue Moon Diner, second hand smoke, smoking ban, Tim Kaine
just found a blog dedicated to Virginia’s smoking ban:
http://www.vasmokingban.info/
here is the bill:
http://www.richmondsunlight.com/bill/2009/hb1692/
I heard on the news earlier this week that the Virginia constitution prevents localities from enacting their own smoking ban, so Charlottesville is not allowed to ban smoking in bars and restaurants unless the entire Commonwealth does. Another bill they were trying to pass would have changed this law so individual localities could decide for themselves. Does anyone know the status of this bill?
OMG you are such a whiny bitch, cocoNut.
Lobbying changes? Obama’s lobbying changes? Aren’t those only going to affect federal lobbyists and not state?
its so obnoxious, like walking into Mas with SARS and coughing everywhere. “Oh shit, I thought this was the SARS section?!?!!?”.
I HEARD IT WAS LIKE HAVING SOMEONE WALK IN AND STEAL YOUR CAR
Oh please, daddy government, tell me what I can and cant do with my person and business. I just cant help myself! I need your stern hand! Kee-rist.
/there are plenty of non smoking restaurants already. plenty of non-SARS ones too.
I would definitely enjoy the guarantee of smoke-free dining, but it might be more effective for non-smokers who feel that strongly about having a smoke-free environment to just avoid the smoky restaurants. If enough people stop frequenting a smoky locale, management of said locale might take the hint. This would require great sacrifice on my part, at least. I looooove me some Blue Moon.
Stop making so much sense Belmont.
I hate smoking and also agree with Belmont Yo.
Let business owners decide and consumers choose.
I don’t like smoke either but if I wanna hang somewhere that allows smoking, I getthefuckoverit.
paternalistic bullshit nanny-state criminey what-the-f*ck goddam intrusive bedroom-watching neo-commie obstructionist eco-nazi save-the-planet nicey-nice-ameriKa.
TOBACCO BUILT THIS GODDAM STATE.
Tobacco paid for our museums, paid for a huge percentage of our hospitals, med research, social programs, roads, etc etc etc.
a ban on smoking targets THE POOR.
Capshaw or anyone else can make any business he WANTS non-smoking.
WTF do we need a law for it.
We are already taxed at 75% of the cost of cigarettes by STATE AND FEDERAL.
The few restaurants and bars and diners LEFT in this town where anyone, where a poor person, where a shabby down-at-heels bohemian can sit the fuck indoors and enjoy a nice cigareet with his coffee or beer should be left the fuck alone.
goddam these people.
I still can’t believe at least Cville hasn’t banned it.
I hear second hand SARS is pretty dangerous too…
Lets take a metaphor for an extended walk, shall we? I have ben a vegetarian for, damn, like 18 years now. Why? Dunno, meat always just kinda grossed me right the fuck out. I know a lot of people feel very differently, but hey, its my gaping maw, and I’ll shovel what I will into it, just like you all should with regards to your respective gobs. No big right? But dig, being a veg for so long has exposed me to the overly dogmatic and aggressively asserted opinions and theories of my fellow veggies (damn but do folks love preaching to the choir), some of which I agree with and some of which I don’t. Now I stopped eating meat as a simple matter of personal taste, but through my preachy incidental compatriots, I have since learned all about the various detrimental effects to both person and planet that stem from an overly carnivorous diet. Yes, that burger you ate 11 years ago is still impacted in your colon. Yes, the rain forests are cut down to make grazing land for whoppers on the hoof. Yes, that big mac is 11% lips and anus…. and on and on.
Just like smoking, there is an argument that can be made that both individuals and the world at large would be better off if these habits were curtailed. But I will be god damned if I would ever advocate some sort of government regulation on how many happy meals the jiggling roundies can stuff into their crotch fruit. Hell, I wont even wax on about my preferences unless somebody asks me. I get grossed out a tetch when my omlette is cooked on the same grill that just played host to a rasher of pig slices – its just like second hand smoke , but I know the deal, and I make my choices. I especially would not want my personal choices to limit the choices of anyone else. There are veggie restaurants. There are non smoking restaurants. We live in a world where anyone can pretty much eat anything in any environment they want, so I dont understand why all these crusaders for various causes are constantly trying to shape the world to fit with there personal preferences. “Oh but my clothes stink after being in a smoky bar!” Yeah, well so dont mine after attending a barbque, but I knew that and chose to go.
Look, I smoke, but I am always very conscious of my surroundings when doing so. I look where my little vapor trails are headed. I dont smoke around folks who dont like it much, even if I am allowed to do so. I go out of my way to facilitate my addictions in such a way that impacts as few people as possible. Its this little thing called the golden rule, which would render obsolete half the regulations on the books if only everybody would step up and give it a whirl. It aint rocket science.
And how would I like to be “done unto”? Leave me the fuck alone. Dont push your subjective qualitative judgements and moralities through my earholes or my legislative bodies. I say to you: eat, inhale, inject, consume, believe, think, read, fuck whatever, however and whomever you want. Its your damn life. I would very much like the same courtesy.
And SARS? Really? Why not shoot for bubonic plague or something, nut? Weak. I award you no points.
Yeah! I don’t like the way cooked meat smells. It ruins my dinner to smell it. Let’s ban cooking meat from restaurants too. Meat ruins every social event.
@17 and most of 15
this all makes sense to me.
the only thing that gives me pause is what about the folks who work in these smoky environments? certainly they are most at risk for whatever second hand smoke might do to someone, spending hours on end in smoky indoor spaces for the sake of a buck? not saying that justifies anything, just wondering in your defense of smokiness, how you see them? seriously, not trying to be a jerk.
i heard that you can catch bird flu if you get a bj from a sick duck.
completely relevant.
@19: Please cue the world’s tiniest violin. Lots of people work in unhealthy environments. I sit on my ass all day and eat vending maching snacks. Let’s ban chairs and junk food!
Maybe I’ll ditch all my smoking friends because they like to smoke and I like to hang out with them. Secondhand smoke for the sake of friendship?
@ 19 Last I checked, folks are pretty much free to work anywhere they want. If a priority for someone is second hand smoke, then perhaps they shouldn’t work in a smoky environment. You certainly wont see me behind a butcher’s counter.
PS I don’t smoke, I just think it’s really douchey to assert that something be banned just because you don’t like it.
@21, 22
ok, ok. just asking.
in other workplaces, known carcinogens would require worker protection mandated by law – not that that always means anything but i think it’s the point of OSHA.
maybe the state could hand out free respirators to restaurant folks instead. or maybe a parallel society of smokers will emerge in which smokers only eat at restaurants where smokers work, only marry other smokers, etc. or has that already happened?
3rd hand smoke. radioactive particles on your carpet, snarfed up by your babies and pets, i tell you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_hand_smoke#Third-hand_smoke
added to which, if you buy a back of smokes, the warnings are all extremely tame—because no court has upheld that the evidence justifies them being stronger.
One version says “The State of California knows cigarettes to cause cancer”. That’s because liberal courts in CA ONLY ruled that the medical evidence was compelling. Others refer only to low-birth-weight in babies of mothers who smoke (pregnant mothers should NOT smoke or drink).
Even the Surgeon General no longer has the nerve to state that smoking or second-hand smoke is a GUARANTOR of cancer, emphyzema, etc. The stats on harm caused by smoking are based on ’smoking-related deaths’, which include basically anyone who dies who EVER smoked, or was EVER near smoke, even if years and years before, who dies of anything having to do with the lungs or cancer, etc. It’s not a direct causal relationship, only a speculative whitewash.
BYo of course is correct. there are very few jobs where smoking is allowed. restaurants (indoors) and construction-work (outdoors). other than those, any office, bank, factory, etc. disallows it. and, again, there is no reason to work in a place that allows indoor smoking if you don’t want to be around it—you aren’t guaranteed by law a job in any place you want to work, so make choices wisely if this is of paramount concern.
And again to restaurants, coffeehouses, bars—just go to the ones that don’t allow smoking. Notice that MOST restaurants catering to the bohemian, poor, or to men-who-are-men allow smoking still—Outback Steakhouse, diners, C&O, Miller’s, etc. Only the ur-sophisticate places that wish they were in NYC don’t allow it–and that’s terrific, the freedom to choose for restaurant owners—Zocalo, Hamilton’s, Starbuck’s, etc.
I smoke from time to time, or I have, and while I don’t like it in restaurants while I’m eating, that’s the whole purpose of the non-smoking section. I think bars is a whole different scenario. I know a lot of people who never smoke during the day, but do enjoy smoking while they’re drinking. It’s just part of the bar scene in my opinion. I know a lot of bar/restaurants, that don’t allow smoking during normal lunch/dinner hours, but late night they do because so many people are for it and will do it anyways. I can’t tell you how many times at X I’ve told people to put out their cigarette b/c smoking isn’t allowed inside and they look at me like I’m nuts. I often wonder why they don’t realize there’s a reason there’s no ash trays on the tables. I know Zocalo also doesn’t not even allow smoking inside. But on the other hand, is it so hard to go outside for your 5 minute smoke break? I know it sucks right now because it’s so cold, but that’s the price you’ve got to pay sometimes. I don’t know, now I’m sounding wishy-washy, but I guess my view is that I’m fine with a smoking and non-smoking section in a restaurant, as long as the smoking section is clearly separated from the smoking one. And as for bars, I say, let the smoking continue until the government actually does something about it.
sorry, i’m soapboxing.
it’s hilarious to me how many potheads i know who support smoking bans.
you all realize that if this anti-smoking stuff goes through, that ALCOHOL will be the next target of do-gooders. Alcohol is what makes trailer-park dads beat their kids (not marlboros), what kills however many on the roads every year, also leads to infant deformities, and liver-kidney failure, all manner of other medical decaying.
@29
and then they’ll ban caffeine, then sugar, then meat, then cooked food. then sex. then we’ll all die out and the planet will revert back to a sublime natural state. but we won’t be able to go hiking cause we’ll be dead.
You are on a misinformation roll today, Mr. OD!
http://www.data-yard.net/10/cdca.htm
Back out of the mire… here’ something new. Apple rejected an iPhone game called Dope War, about meth, coke, weed, etc. So the game make re-skinned it to be about rock candy, pixie dust and and sugar. Now it passes. Prohibition 3: Candy Wars.
Well I suppose that if they can do it in France and Ireland, eventually it could be accomplished here. I personally won’t be looking forward to it: as much as I appreciate the clean air of a nice dining environment — e.g., your L’Etoile, your Duners, your Miyako — I very much also relish the terrific simpatico of a drink and a smoke at Fellini’s or the C & O. The combination can be lethal, to be sure, but if you’re thoughtful about it, you might notice that your occasion is enhanced, and sometimes, that it all makes for a friendlier society.
Going back to the beginning — I can’t help but remember the recent story in the Times about how 40% of France’s cafes have closed in the last couple of years. Coincidence?
Okay… I’ll shut up now.
@30
that’s sortof the point of what i’m doing today Colfer. Wild unfounded assertions tend to generate replies. yesterday nobody replied to anything or initiated any comments. it was death-dull all day—and we need to keep site-hits and comments going here so we don’t succumb to the hateful shutdown fate of MUSE. i couldn’t care less about smoking bans in restaurants because i don’t go to bars or restaurants more than a couple times a year, and i always and only smoke outside at coffeeplaces. and i’m one of those people who’s grandfathers both smoked and both died at 80-90 years old, of natural causes unrelated in any plausible way to smoking.
but i think the above-cited is slightly bunk. fallacious/specious. it’s the percentage they attibute that i’m talking about. the GROUNDS for attributing that percentage i think has historically been THAT they smoked, not forcibly a demonstrable medical link—if there were, then the packs would say “Cigareeets KIIIIIILLLLL YOU!!!” and would be out-and-out banned probably—like you can’t buy arsenic-candy or asbestos-crackers in stores.
Only the ur-sophisticate places that wish they were in NYC don’t allow it–and that’s terrific, the freedom to choose for restaurant owners—Zocalo, Hamilton’s, Starbuck’s, etc.
When did McGrady’s make the A list? I’ll have to start dressing nicer when I go now.
is McGrady’s non-smoking? a travesty–it’s Irish, fer the love of Mary. who doesn’t associate Irish with guinness, bad-teeth, and a dangling smoke—and cool indifference to health concerns. i guess that explains the scores of drinkers hanging out on the patio in 30-degree weather.
the leprechauns in Darby O’Gill and the Little People, a Disney film, smoke pipes.
the only non-smoker is the star, a cleancut young Sean Connery.
I heard a rumor McGrady’s smoking ban was put into place to deter types smoking Swisher sweets.
OK, you tricked me. Posting random nonsense is better than MadLibs but not by much. Celebrate corrosion then.
McGrady’s has been non-smoking for .. it’s got to be getting close to a year now, I think. From the looks of it, if anything it’s increased business there. I’m glad they’ve stuck with it and that it seems to be working for them.
@37
i was pleased you were playing along!!
@36
OMG!!—can we start talking about white-teeshirts and racism?
Swishers are BLUNTS, right? Is McGrady’s racist elitist exclusionary?
cool—we may yet get a Post up to 300 again, as in our hey-day!!!!!
God bless Disney and their snuff-lovin’ leprechauns.
@41
an AWESOME and very artful, well-researched film if you haven’t seen it and love Yeats.
but shenaigans tells us that Uncle Remus wouldn’t be allowed into McGrady’s…
Is there a list somewhere of non-smoking restaurants here in Charlottesville, or do I have to make my own using piecemeal information in this thread?
easier to list the ones where you can smoke, and assume all others are smoke-free.
as far as i know—no restaurant charging more than 15 bucks an entree allows smoking. those very few that do only allow it after 10 pm when they turn into bars. C&O only allows it in the basement/bar. no chinese or japanese restaurant that i’m aware of allows smoking. no coffeehouse in town allows smoking.
most chain restaurants have a smoking section, so you’d still die if you ever ate there.
I don’t much give a damn whether there’s a smoking ban in restaurants. But I’m devastatingly sick of hearing about smokers’ rights or how someone’s evening is going to be just ruined if they can’t smoke inside where they go to eat. You also can’t take your shoes off and put your feet on the bar. You can’t bring your motorcycle inside much less bring it inside and keep the engine running.
The following is not written to garner sympathy but only to offer my perspective. I have a lung disease. I’ve worked my entire life (and worked fairly hard) to try to keep my lungs as healthy as I can. In the last couple of years it’s not gone nearly as well as it used to. I used to be able to sit in a non-smoking section of a restaurant and be ok. I can’t do that anymore (well, I could but I’ll cough horribly the whole time and cause everyone great discomfort and not eat anything anyhow so it’s not worth it). Obviously, being (at least I think so) reasonably intelligent, I simply avoid restaurants that allow smoking inside. The only reason I need to avoid a restaurant is because there are other people who decided to undertake killing themselves slowly in a way that directly, negatively affects anyone around them while they do it.
I’m a big fan of not restricting people unnecessarily. People should be free to choose the things they want to do. Which isn’t the same as being free to do it anywhere they like, anytime they like, no matter who else is around. I don’t get to make the same choices that people who smoke do. And my lack of choice is a result of something I never chose in the first place (smoking, that is).
“Screw it, I want to be able to smoke when I go out to a restaurant to eat or drink” is, to me, a perfectly acceptable line of argument against a government level prohibition on smoking inside restaurants. But anything based in rights or anything at all deeper….no.
@18 While I find my smoked meat is a social event.
/Keeping it meaty.
//Better late than never I say.
i don’t know why, but there’s this. giggle, smoked meat.
I don’t know about all y’all, but I’m in favor of crowd control on this planet so I say no to the smoking ban.
/Whole-heartedly agree with @17.
//Mm. Meat. Only if it’s been raised in my back yard though like when I was at home.
///Non-smoker who occasionally will smoke a cigar. And too steeped in Anglo-Irish-Scandinavian blood to not drink to my liver’s content.
people who decided to undertake killing themselves slowly in a way that directly, negatively affects anyone around them while they do it.
I’m sorry about your disease but asserting that people smoke because they “decided” to “kill themselves slowly” is kinda ridiculous. People do all kinds of things that could lead to their death, both consciously and unconsciously. But I understand why you have a personal bias.
@49 (thanks for the I’m sorry part, I appreciate that) – I don’t think they’ve decided to slowly commit suicide….bad sentence construction by me. Yeah, people choose to smoke (or start smoking, at least) for myriad reasons. And people do all kinds of things that may hasten their death by some measure.
When it comes to smoking, my concern is more to do with the people around those who smoke.
@50: I understand. I just bristled because I know people that smoking is their only escape or stress reliever and they should have somewhere to be able to go and do that and hang out/eat/see people/whatever. If we don’t like it or have health issues, we should go elsewhere.
But your concern is way more valid than Mr. Coco “I can’t believe you people are ruining my eggs benedict and cashmere sweater with your icky smoke” Nut, that’s for damn sure.
Smoking stinks and it’s gross and I wish it would disappear. It makes the people who do it sick and makes the people around them sick and then they all end up adding huge amounts to health care costs. Careless smokers cause fires and their butts litter the streets and sidewalks. There are good reasons to requlate smoking and even ban it. I quit smoking 20 years ago but it may still kill me the way it killed my father who died from lung cancer 26 years after he quit smoking.
Is the the cashmere sweater what the eggs benedict are served on or is it used more as a cozy for the eggs?
No, really Kevin… Tell us how you really feel.
I’m pretty sure smoking is already fairly heavily regulated. Im also pretty sure you or someone you know enjoys some of the civic benefit that is funded by tobacco taxes. And should you ever make a run in Richmond, I will assume you will turn down all that tasty campaign gravy from the likes of Altria, yeah? Whatever.
Oh and by the way, ‘appeal to emotion’ is not a very sound debate device.
Belmont yo,
Whatever benefit there is from taxes on tobacco is easily negated by the huge cost of medical care for tobacco related respiratory illness but if those taxes are such a good thing then raise them up, up, up…and maybe a few people will drop the habit to save their own pocketbooks. Regulate it a whole lot more too, it’s a serious public health menace.
I’m not running for anything, in Richmond, Charlottesville or anywhere.
I’m not debating. Tobacco killed my father and that is relevant to what I wrote. I wrote what I believe and that’s what I believe. As far as I am concerned there’s nothing to debate.
Cordially,
Kevin
just go outside and smoke. is it that difficult? all places that serve food and booze should be non smoking in MY opinion. you can’t smoke on airplanes, in retail stores, in grocery stores, why should a god damn place that serves food be any different. would you like me to sit at my table and play Marilyn Manson on level ten while you ate downstairs at the C&O? No, I think not… It’s about respect for others. it’s not your god given right to make me cough…
it’s not like when a smoker goes out to eat or drink they smoke the whole time they are there. just go outside if you cannot make it through and hour or two without making my clothes and beard smell then you are a serious drug addict, right?
There is a reason for saying Tobacco related disease. It’s because tobacco can’t be proven to be the cause. There are at least a few dozen possible causes, it’s believed, but none can be verified except for radiation they think. All the talk about cost to the state, is just that, talk. There is no way to place the blame. It’s said smoking causes lost time at work. How is this reported? You guessed it, no one keeps records to show the cause of sickness. Who would do it? The company Nurse who isn’t qualified or the company Doctor who isn’t able to find a position anywhere else? Everyone knows someone who died from Cancer and they are certain it was Tobacco. Everyone says I know this is a fact. No, it’s an opinion. Everyone has an opinion but not everyone can state a fact based on an opinion. Even Scientists can’t be sure.
Smoke stinks. That is what it turns to after the smoke clears. I don’t like it and it kills everybody around the smokers. Not. The 1993 EPA Report said SHS/ETS kills 3,000 people a year. The problem with this is the EPA Report was vacated by Federal Judge Osteen as a fraud and two Congressional Committees reached the same conclusion. Since the Surgeon General used the same fraudulent studies is has been called a fraud also. See
HOUSE COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND COMMERCE HEALTH AND ENVIRONMENT SUBCOMMITTEE STATEMENT OF HON. THOMAS J. BLILEY, JR.
http://www.pipes.org/Articles/Bliley.html
TEN LEADING CAUSES OF DEATH IN THE U.S.A.
http://www.geocities.com/madmaxmcgarrity/TENCAUSESofDEATH.htm
Are Diesels More Dangerous than Cigarettes as a Cause of Lung Cancer?
http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/diesel_lung_cancer.html
Try some of this information and you may get a hint of what may actually be a cause.
We will never see this in our Major Media.
http://www.pnc.com.au/~cafmr/online/research/cancer.html
If you depend on the ACS,ALA,CDC and our other agencies for the truth you should remember, they depend on cancer and disease for their living and they are not going to kill their golden goose.
The marketing plan is, Higher Taxes + Smoking Bans = Billions in profit from Smoking Cessation Products.
Follow the money. It has never been about Health.
Driving stinks and it’s gross and I wish it would disappear. It makes the people who do it fat and makes the people around them fat and then they all end up adding huge amounts to health care and transportation costs. Careless drivers cause serious injuries and death, and their emissions pollute the environement. There are good reasons to requlate driving and even ban it.
I don’t go out anymore because of all the smoking bans. Gee, I hope I’m not the reason our economy is tanking. Lord knows, I’m paying my fair share in taxes…
hello, dear OD. Sorry it’s been so long… check your email.
I wrote what I believe and that’s what I believe. As far as I am concerned there’s nothing to debate.
Fair enough. I would never begrudge you your beliefs. Forgive me for mistaking this for a debate.
And for what its worth, cancer took my father as well, at age 34. And I also believe that the tobacco taxes in this state should be raised. I am just very wary of the nanny state mentality, where legislation is passed “for your own good”. Tobacco may be an easy target, but it is a very slippery slope.
/the comforts you have demanded are now mandatory…
@57 – Seriously dude? Are you like that guy from Thank You for Not Smoking? I really hope you don’t believe your own lies. Sure, there are a lot of carcinogens in our environment, but the latest report from the CDC and the US Surgeon General explained:
http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/sgr/sgr_2004/00_pdfs/SGR2004_Whatitmeanstoyou.pdf
Cigarette smoking causes most cases of lung cancer. Smokers are about 20 times more likely to develop lung cancer than nonsmokers. Smoking causes about 90 percent of lung cancer deaths in men and almost 80 percent in women.
So, if that’s not enough for you, how about you go breath through a lit cigarette for the next 365 days straight. Come back and tell me you aren’t getting cancer or have healthy lungs. Seriously?
And, also, banning smoking is not infringing on your rights. Smokers have a clear immediate harm to those around them, even if it’s a very small harm. Does any non-smoker throat/lungs feel OK after entering a smoking establishment? No. Sure, that might not give you immediate cancer, but it seems to me we should make an effort to prevent harm to our fellow citizens when it can be easily avoided.
@62 the guy from “Thank You for Not Smoking” went on to become Two-Face in the Dark Knight, just sayin’
Isn’t the movie “Thank You for Smoking”?
i smoke a pack a day and run, typically, five to ten miles every other day. when in the service, i ran more and smoked more. that’s 365 days, then as now. i don’t think anyone above argues that smoking should be permitted in all restaurants, bars, etc. Just that it be allowed in some, without penalty to the owner. If Cubano decided to permit smoking indoors, then that would be their choice much as it would be your choice whether or not to go in there as a nonsmoker fanatically and erroneously concerned for your pulmonary health. and the argument about smoking killing people is specious. it clearly doesn’t kill all people who smoke, or even necessairly make them ill or diminish, to their minds, the quality of life they experience. There are certainly a bazillion cases of people who lived happily and healthily and enjoyed life up to and beyond life expectancy.
there was an ill-begotten initiative a few years back to ban smoking
on the ENTIRE Downtown Mall, outdoors as well as indoors.
@64 I thought we weren’t suppose to make fun of Thor’s typo’s so early in the morning.
(totally missed that)
@67 – pre coffee
Beware, OD is making things up again.
smoking is dull conversation.
where’s the weekend preview or the update on the Matt R lawsuit or HM’s fiscal insolvency?
{why is our fave local civil libertarian, above, harshing on this innocent hobby-of-choice, and on BYo?}
i will ask about the lawsuit. weekend preview.. eh.. ?
OD,
Didn’t you run the wrong way?
Emotions make me behave irrationally and I HATE smoking.
Puff away,
Kevin
Looking forward to you all settling the nanny state vs. health concerns debate once and for all.
I vote all-out ban. New York, DC and about a million other places seem to be managing.
@45 Chris I’m sorry to hear about your lungs. I have lung disease that was probably caused by my 1 1/2 pack a day habit. I quit smoking about 12 years ago, but my lungs will only worsen slowly over time because the damage has already been done. So I totally get where you’re coming from.
However, I have to agree with BYo and OD on this one. It should be strictly voluntary on the part of owners. There are plenty of restaurants that don’t allow smoking, so I pretty much have my pick to choose from. I either stay away from smoky bars, or I go anyway and cough a bunch the next day. When I quit smoking, I pretty much knew my bar days were numbered, but that’s the price of poker.
You can still have a great social life and stay out of overly smoky bars. By the same token, people who claim their social lives are seriously curtailed because some places don’t allow smoking (I can’t go ANYWHERE! *pout*) are just as ridiculous as the anti-smoking folks crying about how their hair smells. It’s a big world filled with myriad options… vanilla isn’t the only flavour.
I’m also willing to bet that even though I suspect my own smoking directly caused my problem, I can’t discount additional environmental factors like molds, dirty ductwork, etc, either.
it should be illegal to smoke in cars with young children/babies in the car
/especially when the selfish idiot has the window rolled all the way up.
I’d rather see that law instead of banning in bars.
@75 Jesus Mary and Joseph… Why not make it illegal then to transport young children/babies in 2-ton metal machines of death? They are just as likely to be killed in a car than by second-hand smoke. My mother smoked through both her pregnancies, smoked after we were born, smoked while we were young. And even in the car. We’ve turned out with nary a physical ailment, no asthma, no allergies. I’ve known more people who’ve smoked their whole lives who’ve died of old age than of cancer, much less having had cancer to begin with. I’m not negating the very real and very serious concern of the effects of smoking, on the smoker and the people surrounding them, but this argument that smoking in the sanctity of one’s private home or property should be illegal is complete and utter bullshit.
/”There are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by the gradual and silent encroachment of those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpation.”
This is something that really bothers me about the democrats in Virginia. Let the private sector establishment decide. There are are plenty of places that are smoke-free by choice, and they draw smoke free people. This is such an idiot issue.
This conversation is one that is the most difficult to resolve because as much as people would like this to come down at a medical/scientific decision, medicine cannot put a limit on questions like “what level of second hand smoke are we willing to accept?”
Medicine has shown that smoking is deadly, that’s not an argument anymore. The problem is taking that to the next level of public health at that’s a VALUES judgment. That’s where state officials need to take whatever information is available to them and when asking the question “what level of second hand smoke are we willing to accept?”, they need to realize that they are actually answering the question “How many deaths are we willing to accept as a result of inaction”. States like Arizona, California, Delaware,Connecticut, Maryland, Maine, et al. have decided that level is 0.
The same science–>policy–>values filter and inaction by lawmakers is hampering efforts in smoking, climate change, etc. Anywhere that a values judgment comes into place.
@56 Respect goes both ways. Respect the fact a business should be able to make a decision like that on their own. There are smoking and non smoking establishments.
I would like to know why smoking is so vilified, yet they don’t ban people from being drunk (or on their way) whenever and wherever they want. Alcoholics do more damage to their bodies on a daily basis than any smoker on this planet, IMHO. I find it offensive that people can be drunk and delirious, meandering around in public at all times of day and night, causing harm to themselves and others. THEY SHOULD BAN ALCOHOL!
But that’s silly… who would want to put the damper on a very lucrative, multi-billion dollar industry, not to mention the lubricant of this country’s social ecosystem? Certainly not me. Smoking is the same thing. It’s a harmful habit, but almost a necessary evil. It helps people get through their day, heighten their pleasure in social settings, and give us a distraction from our shitstorm lives.
I smoke, but I think it’s a dirty thing to do around non-smokers, so I try to be conscientious about it. I will go around the corner of a building, walk downwind of people, or simply ABSTAIN FROM SMOKING until it is acceptable to do so. Why can’t everyone who smokes take a few seconds to think, “If I light this cigarette here, would I truly bother anyone around me?” If they can answer no without guilt, then puff away. Otherwise, keep the non-smoking majority happy and put it the fuck out.
@80para.3 thank you; you’re a doll.
I used to smoke, and yes, it’s a gross habit and yes, it makes your clothes smell, and yes, it causes lung cancer, etc. …
… but I quit, on my own without the government telling me I had to.
In addition, if I go to a bar and my clothes stink and I don’t like that, then I don’t have to go to that bar. We have too many rules in the country already. We have alternate choices, people!
LOL@ Chad. McGrady’s is a fine establishment sir! What other places offer free popcorn? Hmm?
Sneak Reviews and Vivace = popcorn
The bowling alley’s bar got Chex Mix, yo.
Businesses should have the right to allow or prohibit any sort of legal behavior. You people are a bunch of authoritarian pricks.
@81 I heart you.
@87 point being, it shouldn’t be legal.
Wow!!
http://www.governor.virginia.gov/MediaRelations/NewsReleases/viewRelease.cfm?id=872
our governor is a pussy and a health-nazi. what is this, fucking vermont?
nice of them to include this, though:
Contact:
Office of the Governor
(804) 786-2211
Gordon Hickey
804.225.4260
804.291.8977 (cell)
Fucking ridiculous. On one hand, I’ll come home with my hair not smelling like an ashtray but on the other, fucking ridiculous.