From WCAV19:
Some neighbors say the current restaurants are causing too many problems for the neighborhood. The city council will vote on the re-zoning at their next meeting, but they showed their support for the applicants Monday.
Who else is looking forward to crawfish, gumbo, alligator and fried oysters? Can someone please give me some negatives of bringing another restaurant to the Belmont strip? It doesn’t seem like such a big deal to me. There are already 2 places that are open for evening dining and it seems pretty tame. If someone wants to complain about traffic, I think its a good thing people will have a reason to drive even slower in Belmont…some treat it like NASCAR.
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Oh gee I wish another restaurant had fried oysters. You can’t get those anywhere.
we can also get steak at TGI Fridays but you dont see us going there
It doesn’t seem like such a big deal to me.
Then again, you dont live next door.
we can also get steak at TGI Fridays but you dont see us going there
The oysters at Cassis cannot be topped.
yes, but you see us going to cassis, maya, zinc, etc.
The problem is that the people who dine in belmont tend to end up chatting and standing around IN THE MIDDLE OF THE STREET! All you need is one drunk driver and several people will be killed. I’ve had to stop while drivng through there and wait until the idiots in the road notice that it’s a road, not a pedestrian mall. Also, the huge number of cars parked along all the steets narrows them down to one lane and it’s hazardous for driving.
The residents of belmont can’t safely walk or drive through their neighborhoods anymore.
I don’t live in belmont but I do visit friends there a lot so I have to drive through the maze of people and parked cars everytime I visit.
Close it down like Bourbon Street in the evenings! Make the whole strip with these restaurants like the French Quarter. Beads and flashing for everyone!
and there are many problems. check out that c-ville post you made so much fun of.
So where do you draw the line? One more restaurant? Three more? At what point does a neighborhood stop being a place where people live, and end up being a commercial district? Is the availability of gumbo more important than quality of life for people who live there?
I’m not saying I know all the answers, just that these are not simple questions.
Is the availability of gumbo more important than quality of life for people who live there?
This is much funnier as a Sex in the City question.
i’d say you draw the line at what has already been zoned residential.
That’s a good point, that Lulu brought up. If they re-zone and this place fails, then isn’t it doomed to lny be restaurants from then on? That sucks for people trying to get houses in Belmont.
yeah, like what’s happening with the walmart next to the civil war battleground. they zoned it commercial & now they’re getting mad & trying to stop a conforming use. planners should have thought about the repercussions before.
What Andrew’s saying here is really valid. What’s the tipping point? Obviously, *someone* wants Belmont to become a commercial district badly enough to ignore the wishes of the current residents. This is where it’s going to take the involvement of everyone. It’s up to the residents of a neighborhood to decide what their own fate should be. Don’t allow the city gov’t to make those decision for you! In most instances, they’re looking out for the developers, not you. Complain early, and complain often. The price of liberty is, unfortunately, vigilance– and lots of it.
Make sure that Council gets your emails on the topic before they vote at their next meeting . Explain clearly why you object, and that it’s setting a precedent. Explain that it’s not about the cute hipster applicants and their crazy dream for success, and it’s sure as hell not about the potential for fried oysters (which can be undeniably delicious), it’s about the flippin’ zoning.
We don’t need any more daggum fried oysters in this town. Srsly.
The fried oysters at Cassis are the best, the fried oysters at Maya are second and the fried oysters at Zinc are third. There is plenty of room for someone to try and challenge Cassis because fried oysters might be the greatest food ever created. After rabbit sausage.
staunton grocery has pulled rabbit salad. intriguing.
FWIW, I emailed all five city councilors. If anyone else is interested, you can do the same:
http://www.charlottesville.org/Index.aspx?page=92
Crap. Make that:
http://www.charlottesville.org/Index.aspx?page=93
Didn’t a restaurant with this same type of food FAIL on the Corner?
yes. the owner said “the concept just didn’t work well over there.” so H&A think it will work well in belmont?
their sweet potato fries were gud.
Just read the Charlottesville Tomorrow story and both Norris and Edwards are stating that their votes are contingent on the neighborhood/community coming together to address their parking and noise concerns. Uh, I guess that’s because the City government isn’t going to do its job and address them. Okaaaaay…..
This is like playing SimCity. Don’t put the R next to the I or else you’ll just end up with those stupid little brown houses.
Perhaps Mr. Cox would like a taste of what he’s proposing:
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/1599/picture1thj.jpg
Sorry, I didn’t have time to shop in 47 cars clogging up all the parking, or selfish patrons wine drunk and loud…
well, after a full day of repartee between myself and the mayor Dave Norris, i can truly say we have a problem. after the extensive and in-depth probing by the planning board members of residents and businesses an educated opinion was decided upon and that was “no” to the applicants. this is not an expresssion of personal preference but an application of the real planning code. the city council in all its wisdom has decided that that decision and opinion was not valid or even appropriate and that such an enterprise would not remedy or worsen the current heinous situation. well, they couldn’t be more wrong or deaf to the concerns of affected residents who have already been dealing with issues of noise, garbage, crime and bad behavior.
i mean, how much can we ask of a resident who has lived here since birth, or moved their family here and established and sacrificed to create a beautiful nest for their fam? should those living with chemo and ill of health be asked to suck it up so yet another marginal reataurant be created and their time of repose or quietude be ditched? i thought the whole idea behind the investigative process was to determine whether there was even a need for such a venture? clearly ten restaurants in one neighborhood is enough and residents and businesses have paid their dues. this is not a NIMBY situation and i seriously doubt dave simpson from Bel Ro, Dave Norris or Holly Edwards from city council would allow the noise and hurlyburly created by these ventures into their neighborhoods or cloistered country estates. we’re talking about degrading and discounting the value of scenic views of mountains and sunsets, noise-less sundays, or trashless mondays in a charming less-than-soho- neighborhood. who will speak for the trees? i will! i will be the lorax here if necessary and scream from the hilltop enough! let these people go and quit tormenting them with your insufficient, ill-advised and non-strategic or sustainable plans. sure i’ve paid my dues and continue to do so, this isn’t a question of hierarchy or even maturity but rather appropriateness, sustainability and the rights of those who for years have sacrificed, sweated, built, dreamed of a better future. how can we sacrifice that for a single idea that is quite likely to fail . if we lose this restaurant it can still create itself in many venues – if we lose this house, and the promise of sustainability everybody loses in belmont. don’t let the travesty of the downtown mall and failed hotel be an excuse for disenfranchising even more working-class residentsa who play by the rules and hope, aspire for a better future beyond the myopic fumblings of a few people.
DR – TL
The crazy man actually made some good points in @27
Internet Acronym Dyslexia: help us find a cure!
Did I need to spell it out?
Okay — ‘didn’t read; too long’.
Sorry.
Say it however you want, no worries.
But if your curious about my comment, GIS “DR/TL” and then “TL/DR”.
“the travesty of the downtown mall”
Sorry to spoil your bucolic dreams, and to rain on the parade of the righteous and hypocrites in this little thread, but YOUR property values in tiny toon town would be zilch nada zero without the businesses and restaurants that sustain it every single day. If they wanted to plunk a Target in Belmont I’d be marching along to your collective drum. If this was an actual problem like Plum Creek in Maine where they are bulldozing thousands of acres in beautiful Moosehead Lake to out of town developers, I’d climb the tree and shout Attica till they pulled me down w/ shotguns raised (and am in fact involved in that…a losing effort I’m afraid). This ain’t the same…it’s a Creole restaurant. I hang out in Belmont quite a bit and it ain’t the Combat Zone my friends and never will be, so you know get a grip on yourselves.
This screeching overreaching hyperbole about one place that wants to open a little bistro and not a strip club mind you is so typical of the myopic elitist confused intelligensia that incorporates this tiny burg that if I were to give a seminar about so what was it you didn’t like about Charlottesville, I would bring up this thread.
The travesty of the downtown mall is why you are able to live the life that you do. Go ahead w/ Pitchforks raised.
Taliesin- it’s not about saying that there can never be another restaurant in Belmont. The argument is SPECIFICALLY about WHERE that restaurant will go and whether it’s necessary to rezone residential property in order to do so. See Orchid’s previous comment about zoning being a slippery slope. Truer words were never spoken. This issue is ultimately about the big picture of the future of zoning in Belmont down the road, not the quick fix of Creole food.
Once again this argument has been allowed to devolve into “Hannah and Andrew are teh cool and I like Creole food.” The point is about the zoning precedent for that particular parcel, and the people who actually LIVE in that area of Belmont have made their feelings on the matter abundantly clear. Just because one restaurant, or five restaurants, are a good thing, it doesn’t mean that 20 restaurants are good for a neighborhood. A residential neighborhood can only absorb so much business before it turns into a commercial district.
And seriously, someone needs to point out that your “hanging out in Belmont” doesn’t make you more of an expert on their quality of life than the people actually living there.
Once again this argument has been allowed to devolve into “Hannah and Andrew are teh cool and I like Creole food
Are you reading what i’m reading? Cuz nobody said that
Sorry Shen, you’re right. Maybe it should be phrased more as the “I like to go to Belmont to have fun, and those uncool residents are trying to kill my buzz” argument.
However, the argument I paraphrased in my post above has sadly been what the applicants and their friends have been putting out into the community.
Ahhh I see. Well it doesn’t matter how cool they are, it matters what the zoning will do to the neighborhood.
Well it doesn’t matter how cool they are…
I think you mean how uncool they are.
whatver your pinion of andrew and hanna, what is your opinion of janet and mary? or ed and lisa? or tomas and amy? or any other combo you desire? this is not a formula for success or sustainabity but a formul for disaster. thi has never been about the charisma of the current owners of the applicant property but rather whether it is appropriate to re-zone it through necessity (do we need another Belmont restaurant) in light of the current problems created by The Local, Bel Rio, Mas, Tavola, Spudnuts, Foxes, Aquies en Mixeco, La Guadalupe, Korea House, Belmont BBQand La Taza? what other neighborhood has to make this decision or draw this line? None. How many provide parking or trash removal, or recycling or access to local farms? How many engage the neighbors like responsible adults and ask their opinion? one. MAS. I’ m sick of this charade – city council has got to face up to the fact htey have hollowed out the downtown area and the corner and are faced with diminishing returns. why should Belmont be asked to make up the slack they created by their short-sighted, unsustainable and unwise decisions? this is not about hanna, andrew, lucinda or ian, but about our collective ability to say enough is enough and stick to it. without Belmont the Southern Crescent can exist and thrive. Without zoning and existing zoning protective measures Belmont cannot survive but become rather, like the Cabell Hall South Lawn Project, The Corner, Elliewood or the Downtown Mall, an empty and vacant tribute to unsustainable and ill-founded strategies for economic ‘growth’.
look i encourage everyone to register their comments to city council because they really believe no one is engaged in this struggle or issue. right, wong, now, later, let them know that you are watching and aware of their actions. that is enough as far as process is concerned. results? well, if you really need a New Orleans Resto i suggets you travel to NO, becuase my momma/grandma were♠ from there and i never had any thing close to her cooking outside of Gallatoires or the Quarter. all i knowis the neighborhood has always had my back and i’ve got theirs. laissez les mal temps roullez!
Seems as though most of the posters this time around are not Belmont residents, but instead are restaurant people with their own interests, and perhaps some frequent diners who go to Belmont for meals.
I don’t live there either, and don’t eat there much (do like Rick Olivarez at Bel Rio on Sunday nights!)
Anyway, just was thinking that the “shut the door behind you” mode is in full regalia over this. As for residents who protest further development, aren’t they forgetting that the appreciation in the value of their homes is directly related to the creative commerce that has been established there in the last ten years? Cause I remember my early days in town, in the nineties, when I thought Belmont was strictly a flea-bitten dump.
Oh well. It will all come out in the wash. But myself? I’m rooting for Andrew and Hannah.
I don’t think it’s a “shut the door behind you” attitude (at least on the part of most people who oppose the rezoning), it’s more of a “where do you draw the line” attitude, and/or a “why are you messing with existing zoning” attitude.
I don’t live in that immediate area, but I do live in Belmont, and I think there’s a big difference between starting a restaurant where restaurants are supposed to be, and changing the rules just so someone can make a buck (and screw up life for folks who live nearby).
-not the Andrew of Andrew and Hannah
i’m glad you clarified which andrew you are
“Perhaps Kyle’s store is one of those. ”
WTH? Kyle has a store? Like, umm, retail? Where, what is it?????!?!?!
if i sue Cvillain can i get back the two hours of my life it took to read these endless rambling comments?
*cough* pot! *snort* kettle!
i have a new respect for the succintness required for deadline journalism?
Cvillain is fast-becoming about quick-n-dirty comments straight to the point. We only had, what, 11 hours to call Matt R an ass on that thread before it got locked-down and accepted no more.
Look at parlie. Never more than a line, and always the best and most memorable stuff anyone says on any post.
i could be wrong, but it’s my recollection that you CAN use property for a lesser purpose–i.e., industrial property you could use for commercial or residential, commercial you could use for residential, R 2 you could use for R1…
Correct. Just as I could buy a piece of land that’s zoned to put a 30 unit apartment building on, but instead put a single family home on it. But I couldn’t do the other way around.
I’m not sure you can build a house on land that is zoned as industrial. I’m pretty sure you would have to get it rezoned. They don’t want people build houses in industrial parks.
Euclidean II Zoning uses traditional Euclidean zoning classifications (industrial, commercial, multi-family, residential,etc.) but places them in a hierarchical order “nesting” one zoning class within another similar to the concept of Planned Unit Developments (PUD) mixed uses, but now for all zoning districts; in effect, adding a third dimension to flatland Euclidean zoning. For example, multi-family is not only permitted in “higher order” multi-family zoning districts, but also permitted in high order commercial and industrial zoning districts as well.
if you think about it, basically the reason for zoning is to not decrease property values. don’t think industry would be harmed by having someone live amongst it. the residents can’t complain bc they “came to the nuisance.”
You can’t build a house on industrial land. The city is full of non-conforming uses, and weird uses that have been grandfathered in– all loose ends that the city claims they’ll tie up one day. Perhaps Kyle’s store is one of those. But, overall, addressing one faulty zoning (Belmont BBQ located immediately next to an R-1S property), by creating more bad zoning, is faulty logic and bad planning. Congratulations on that, Council!
Holly Edwards needs to use her noggin to make these decisions, not base them on whether or not she’s ever seen any of the opposing Belmont residents sitting at Mas or La Taza. Their patronage of those establishments doesn’t make them hypocrites. Jebus.
Orchid knows her Euclidean zoning!
Unfortunately, in the past, lower income residential neighborhoods had Industrial zoning overlaid on them, and this has been their downfall. It wasn’t a case of them moving next to the Industry, the Industry was put next to the houses. What you’re seeing happening in Belmont is similar except that it’s unbuffered commercial zoning in addition to the industrial.
Council is attempting to create a mixed-use district, but not going about it in any logical fashion, and using the cuteness of the applicants as the rationale that it’s okay to do so.
that probably differs by jurisdiction.
i can’t tell from the map which it is now (the division bc neighborhood commercial corridor & residential is right there), but it’s probable that in the 1920s when the store was built, zoning didn’t exist in c’ville, as it didn’t being until 1916 in NYC.
Orchid knows her Euclidean zoning!
She does, but she glossed over the more commonly used Standard Euclidean zoning to find the less common form that supports her argument. I’d have to question which one Charlottesville uses.
They’ve traditionally used Standard Euclidean, but are slowly moving in another direction. We’ll be feeling the growing pains of their decision making for awhile.
Zoning is like religious dogma– best not to stick too rabidly to one form or another. Utilize a hybrid that creates the best possible zoning practices for the individual community, honors the desires of its residents etc. Just because it’s fresh and new now doesn’t mean it will hold up in the long run. Lockstep density advocates like Jason Pearson would destroy this City if given the chance. They tend to use only one of the many zoning tools available them, when they should be using the whole toolbox.
my euclidean comment wasn’t even in regard to charlottesville; it was in regard to your query about building a house on land zoned industrial. obvi i meant it theoretically, bc the land in question is, i believe, on the other side of monticello from industrial land.